Steam & Excursion > C&O 1309

Well...it has been about a month now when the news came out that brass from the 2-6-6-2 had been stolen, and all work suspended on the locomotive restoration. So what is happening now? Is that b__tard doing hard time yet? Has anybody ordered new brasses? Is any more work being performed on the locomotive, or is everyone just content running the shiny, newly painted red diesel? This Mallet restoration has a big following. We would like to know what is happening.

I second this inquiry. I'm sure somebody knows what's up. The WMSR facebook page is largely silent. No news is WORSE than bad news, if you ask me.

Keystone, with all due respect the WMSR issued a statement when the brass theft issue was announced that work on the 1309 had ceased due to lack of funds and would not resume until/unless they were successful in raising the $ 630k needed to finish the job.

They said they would keep the public informed of any positive developments. The only " news" since then is a public statement by the county executive questioning his faith in the current management of the WMSR and indicating that it was unlikely that the county would be putting more money into the 1309 project.

As I've said in the past, unless the State of Md. decides to put in another chunk of money this project will almost certainly stay moribund.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

In March the WMSR asked the county for $200,000. Here is the article that highlights the last fiscal year. $1.3million in liabilities and $1.2million in assets. The county is not happy with all of those liabilities. The article is about the closest picture we have seen of the finances, but still lacks a lot.

http://www.times-news.com/news/local_news/scenic-railroad-s-operations-a-concern-shade-says/article_123500ff-54fd-5747-b010-8c7ca35c8894.html

Did the stolen items include loco-specific items that were made from brass castings, and expensive to replicate, or was the loss confined the crown brasses for the driver axles?

Were the cast steel, driver journal boxes stolen, too?

I somewhere read that the ignoramus tried to forcefully
(Manually) separate the two...
Brasses are typically pressed into the boxes under great pressure...



The longer the engine sits in pieces, the higher the completion costs creep —- especially with profit motive is attractive....

The total rebuilding of locos far exceeds the actual costs to get one operational, yet still comply with the Boiler inspection regulations.

Other tinkering is often unnecessary, or can be addressed at a later time. Such ‘factory-new’
endeavors are rarely needed in short trip tourist operations.

In my opinion, too many loco restorations are initiated, disassembled, cash-guesses are consumed at an alarming rate, on curious tinkering, and the poor loco is left in pieces, seduced and abandoned, so to speak...

Such Attempts are numerous, with the collection of scattered parts being all that remains —- of a perfectly operational candidates...

Thnx.

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/18 12:17 by wcamp1472.

So while all of this is going on, what about the 734? Or is that over for good?

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

734 is pretty much done for now. The current leadership has little interest in steam,

ALCO630 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So while all of this is going on, what about the
> 734? Or is that over for good?

The 734 needs the FRA mandated 1472 day/15 year inspection, which has not been started.

Oh well, glad I shot it when I did.

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

Keystone1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well...it has been about a month now when the news
> came out that brass from the 2-6-6-2 had been
> stolen, and all work suspended on the locomotive
> restoration. So what is happening now? Is that
> b__tard doing hard time yet? Has anybody ordered
> new brasses? Is any more work being performed on
> the locomotive, or is everyone just content
> running the shiny, newly painted red diesel?
> This Mallet restoration has a big following. We
> would like to know what is happening.

Rather than obsessing on a restoration which, by all accounts, is dormant, why not take more of an interest in efforts which are either under way or have been successfully completed.

Out west, good progress is being made on restoring AT & SF 2926 to operation. In the east, it looks like Reading 2102 will return to steam within the next 2 - 3 years.

Meanwhile, recently Duluth & Northeastern #28 and Everett Railroad #11 have been bought back to operation.

There other restorations I've omitted.

Why not enjoy the iron horses which are running or will soon grace the rails?

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Why not enjoy the iron horses which are running or
> will soon grace the rails?

Keystone will happily tell you that he's already seen all of those engines run - or that they fail to meet his standards in terms of aesthetic appearance, sun angles, crew dress, choice of lunch condiments, passenger consists, etc etc ad nauseum. Thus, he has little use for the lowly men, women, employees and volunteers of countless steam and tourist railroad across the land...

I would love to see a donation receipt for each one of Keystone's questions about the 1309. Or just one. Maybe that would make you a stakeholder - and then you would be just a bit more entitled "to know what is happening."

I saw someone post this on another board this morning and thought I’d share it here

New steam engine may not turn at Frostburg Depot

http://www.times-news.com/news/local_news/new-steam-engine-may-not-turn-at-frostburg-depot/article_e9971451-efa5-5034-bea0-3fd0e260b7fc.html

Posted from iPhone

"What we know is what Baldwin Locomotive says the locomotive can do as far as going around curves," said Garner. "The curve at Frostburg, that's the final curve into the (Frostburg) station that goes into the turntable; it's 22.5 degrees and our locomotive is only rated at 22 degrees. We are not 100 percent sure it can go around that curve and get to the turntable."

What's embarrassing is that rebuilding the curve and extending the siding were part of the plan to accommodate 1309 there...but that's never once mentioned or attributed to anyone in the article. That's the logical solution - and was part of the original plan.

What's even more embarrassing is the implication that this wasn't already considered. Instead it's more "woe unto us."

edited to add: WMSR wants Frostburg to pay for the siding/curve work, so this article is partially posturing to put pressure on Frostburg. But the intent is absolutely undercut because then they say "well we can always run backwards..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/18 06:04 by nathansixchime.

Another potential "issue" with 1309 could be the transition onto the turntable. There is a significant ascending grade (over 2%) immediately prior to a locomotive progressing onto the flat surface of the turntable. Such a major change in vertical height was noticeable enough on 2-8-0 #734, but could be a much bigger potential "issue" with the articulation joint/pin connection between the front engine and the main engine frame. Just my opinion but, I really don't think that large articulated steam locomotives were designed for such a severe change in vertical heights.

So if I read the article correctly, they plan on running in reverse with the #1309 back to Cumberland... if they can't get on the Turntable how are they even going to at the very least run around the train?... is #1309 going to "shove" the train downgrade staying on the west end of the train? Or drag it backwards with a diesel on the east end of the train? Wasn't reducing the need of using a diesel helper one of the reasons #1309 was purchased in the first place. Now it looks like a diesel will be needed to bring the train back to Cumberland..........

And as for the concerns about the curve and the elevation changes at Frostburg. Those items have been questioned by many folks since the announcement of #1309's purchase......

Tim W.

I'm just mad about this whole thing. The return of 1309 was going to be a real celebration, but it seems now that it will never happen. It just illustrates how all of the negativity of railfans got to be so. Especially with steam fans, we are so used to disappointment it has come to be expected. But I guess that's just how it goes when you're working with locomotives that are 100 years old (give or take), especially when it's hard to make a profit on a good day.

Keystone gripes often, no denying that, but it was a fair question to
ask the status of the restoration. There's probably a lot of talk on
FB but there are many that steer clear of such sites and the associated
non-sense. I can not say whether Keystone has or has not made donations
recently - no one but Keystone can, but he's a regular on photo-charters
and on the assumption those charters are not ran at a loss by the host
railroad, he's contributed, both with a ticket and often, a donation to
the crew in the tip hat. I'm betting, however, he's made several dona-
tions.

As for obsessing on the negative - no obsessing, it was just a question.
The state of other restorations is not relevant to the question asked.
It is as odd an argument as those that suggest the T1 Foundation build
a NYC Hudson instead of a T1.

Any talk about the curve being "possibly" too tight seem moot based on
Kelly's mention that it was anticipated and just another issue needing
further funding.

Just saying...

Appreciate the question - regardless of how redundant they may be, such
questions seem to often bring up additional information (elevation concerns
and the somewhat misleading story that was noted, and corrected by Kelly,
as well as for some, the story of the tight curve itself).

/Mitch

That article says it is cheaper to rebuild 1309 than to do the 1472 day on 734. Is that accurate, or just skewing the numbers to support the restoration that has gone awry? I certainly do not claim to know anything about steam locomotives, but just from strictly a mechanical outlook it would seem that a routine update of a piece of machinery that has been running shouldn't be more expensive than rebuilding one that has been sitting dormant for years.

Am I way off base with that outlook? Curious as to what is involved with a 1472 that would make it more expensive.

Cole42 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Am I way off base with that outlook? Curious as
> to what is involved with a 1472 that would make it
> more expensive.

Thought I read somewhere that rebuilding No. 734 would
cost a million. It was run very hard, from what I heard,
like there was no tomorrow. Maybe they expected No. 1309
to be ready and funds were simply non-existent?

The "stated" cost to finsish No. 1309 was near $600,000.00
which considering how much was put into it, could be accu-
rate. But then you have to factor in the issues at Frost-
burg. And of course, there were expected savings antici-
pated in running 1309 since no diesel helper would be re-
quired. (Damn hyphenations, lol).

/Mitch

All of this was anticipated by the previous management. As stated before by "NathanSixChime", there were plans to rebuild the approach to the turntable to increase the radius of the curve to allow more gentle approach (curvature also gave 734 and six-wheel diesels problems), as well as rework the grade approaching the turntable. The grade is not just a problem for 1309 and 734, but also for passenger loading as the platform didn't match the height of the cars. Some of the structural supports on the platform were beginning to fail so everything was going to be addressed at once, as well as lengthening the platform and siding to accommodate longer consists.

I remember hearing the actual cost to correct the curvature and grade were less than $10,000 when combined with the other work.

In my opinion, it's more excuses not finish the project and to take attention away from other issues that are going on at WMSR.

As for the reported cost to restore 734, the last number was $1,800,000 and that's before any "gotchas" are found.