Steam & Excursion > Shay Question for the Steam Experts

The Shays at Cass, in my opinion, are putting out much black smoke for most of the upgrade. Seems like much more so than other steam locomotives. Is there any reason for this (can it be avoided), or is my memory bad?

THANKS in advance for your information.

Posted from Android

Good catch...

Yes, it can be avoided ..... a big challenge is the small combustion volumes  of the fireboxes, coupled with modest steam draft up the stack.

First, for coal burning engines, ( I’ve never fired using wood, except in cold start, light-offs..). You would want to seek short 
flame-length coals, like cannel coal, which burns white hot, very short flame lengths... common in places like WVa.

Then you want to determine the best, cleanest burning configuration of the firebed on the grates.  
Also,  a couple of modest over-fire jets would get necessary oxygen over the firebed and would help clear-up the stack.
You would want a thin fire, maybe with a modest heel acrosss the back, under the fire doors.

There’s not much you can do about the low engine exhaust volume up the stack...which yields a low draft..

Oil burners are stuck with long-flame fuels.... if you watch the tall flaring-towers at refineries, you’ll see even in open air combustion  that the flame lengths are 30 to 40 feet, and end in dense trails of thick black smoke.

Others will have additional comments..

W.

Uphill you're getting about as much draft as the engine is capable along with a fireman trying
to keep the sewing machine in steam, tendancy to overfire.

Out

At Cass they do that intentionally for show. I ounce knew a guy that said he would go there and buy a ticket to ride. Then talk his way into the cab and fire the engine all of the way with little or no smoke. I once heard it said "them rail-fans love smoke"

I love Cass, but by god do they blow the whistle wayyy too much.  I know its part of the "show"...but still.. 

Photo charters, photo runs, unless you threaten the hoghead's life they're nuts on the whistle
cord. What's the excuse for blowing the whistle on flat land in the middle of nowhere. cattle on
the track?

Out

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Photo charters, photo runs, unless you threaten
> the hoghead's life they're nuts on the whistle
> cord. What's the excuse for blowing the whistle on
> flat land in the middle of nowhere. cattle on
> the track?
>
> Out

"Them railfans luv it!"...

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> callum_out Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Photo charters, photo runs, unless you threaten
> > the hoghead's life they're nuts on the whistle
> > cord. What's the excuse for blowing the whistle
> on
> > flat land in the middle of nowhere. cattle on
> > the track?
> >
> > Out
>
> "Them railfans luv it!"...

I would think that the vast majority of the paying customers at Cass are NOT railfans.

If thats what it takes to keep that place going,so be it! Captain

Whistle blowing pays the bills!

Posted from Android

Marty Harrison
Knob Noster, MO

When the Durbin & Greenbrier Valley RR took over operation of the Cass Scenic RR in 2014, I was hired to address compliance issues and develop standards of operation to help put the place on a (hopefully) profitable basis.  It was a tough assignment that for various reasons, both political and local, that made my work pretty much a waste of time.

The firemen are trained to make lots of smoke, and lift the safety valves as frequently as possible.  I was told this by several people.  The fact they were wasting effort and money by poor locomotive management meant nothing to them.  When I asked why we do this, I was told, "That's the way we do it here.  You aren't from around here.  You don't know."  They did indeed have one good fireman in the past who kept a good clean stack and kept the engines hot against the pops all day long.  She was roundly ridiculed and harassed to the point that she quit and took the State of WV to court on the matter.  This was of course, before my time there.

One day I was called to be engineer on the Whitaker train.  There was a problem with the water tank and we had to leave town without a full tender.  I told my fireman that I do not want to hear this engine pop off once on this trip as we needed to conserve every drop of water in the tender.  He just laughed and said "we'll see about that".  As soon as we started back from the shop to the depot, he got on the deck and started heaving coal.  I told him to sit down.  He ignored me.  For the next 30 minutes we sat in front of the depot, black smoke pouring out the stack and the pops repeatedly lifting.  Our trip up the hill was typical black smoke and roaring pops.  At Whitaker, we had to run up to the emergency tank around corner and with a gas pump, suck up a couple of feet of water so we could get home.  To put it mildly, I was real pissed.  When I talked to the upper management about ;my fireman's insubordination,  I was told to forget about it, if we try to change how they do things, the employees will get mad and probably burn the place down....again.

At this point, I determined that my job there was pointless.    Nothing will ever change Cass.
 

Wow,
Thats a well written essay on the poor practices on the part if upper management.
The “smoke for show” attitude is understandable from a P.R. perspective.  

At High Iron excursions we knew that our customers came for the show.

However, professionalism includes common sense and commitment to basic safety practices.

Insubordination is a complex concept, probably that conduct isn’t the kind of employment relationship that exists in non-military environments.   However, you were wise to move on to other opportunities.

The stupidity of not modifying the common practices, in recognition of the need to conserve water .... taking that kind of risk, with 
an attitude of braggadocio is inexcusable. managers needed to have corrected that conduct on the part of the fireman.

A good clue to “overall operations” is the observable compliance with common safety practices.
If a “safety first” attitude is not immediately apparent, RUN, don’t walk ....AWAY and get far away.

Thank for your descriptive essay.
Wes

(Not proofed yet..)

Thanks for your insights Earl.   

Cass is a great place, and feels like a logging railroad,  but you can tell from miles away it is very much a "good ole boy" network running the show deep down.   

When I rode the cab in 14', we had a female fireman (firewomen?),  who did an excellent job, and didnt lift the safetys at all all the way to Wittaker.   

I imagine you could anwser this. Why do they have waterlines on top of the wheelsets?

Sure have been alot of "fires" at Cass in its history.

Enjoy retirement.      



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/19 22:01 by sixaxlecentury.

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I was told that they think the engines stay on the rail better with the water running onto every wheel. With the number of sharp curves they have it makes some sense. Another one of those things they've always done that way.

The water does two things:  1. It works as a flange lubricator to cut the friction down on the curves. and .... 2. A tire cooler.  The engines must rely on thier own brakes to assist in bringing the trains down the hill.  The trains are still hand-braked off the mountain with a brakeman on each car (another practice that I won't get  into here),  As the hand brakes are tied down, the engine must either assist in the braking effort by using its own independent brake or actually pulls the train lightly.  There are few places where the train floats along on the cars' hand brakes alone.  Excessive use of the independent brake will heat the tires up to the point of them coming loose on the centers.  The water helps keep the tread cool.

Earl:

Thank you for answering my question. I hate to hear that their incorrect practices are still being used and that they refuse to change.

I still am looking forward to going back, as the locomotives are a joy to hear and see working the steep grades and tight curves. And, the scenery is beautiful too.

Maybe someday they will realize the errors of their ways!

Posted from Android

I was told that the young lady's name was Amy McGrew.   Here are three photos of her at work. In the photo on the hill, she is firing #11 which is the second engine.  From what I understand on my trips there, she knew and enjoyed her work, and I hope that she is doing well at whatever she is doing now.

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