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Steam & Excursion > 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.


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Date: 11/06/19 07:11
4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: Spikes

Those planning to see the historic Union Pacific 4014 Big Boy Locomotive in East Texas will also see a second famous engine.......UP and the Bush Foundation announced the historic engine 4014 will be pulling the George H.W. Bush locomotive 4141 that led last year’s presidential funeral train.



Date: 11/06/19 09:20
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: CPRR

Spikes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those planning to see the historic Union Pacific
> 4014 Big Boy Locomotive in East Texas will also
> see a second famous engine.......UP and the Bush
> Foundation announced the historic engine 4014 will
> be pulling the George H.W. Bush locomotive 4141
> that led last year’s presidential funeral train.

Terribly sorry so say this, but 4014 could not pull anything without the assistance of a diesel running at notch 7 or 8. This was proven by many people in the know that it was pushed up and down Cajon pass, with boiler pressure gauges at 180-225 psi. There is something seriously wrong withg this locomotive, and UP knows it.



Date: 11/06/19 10:12
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: wcamp1472

What’s up with the poor firebox performance reports?
Any truth to the reports?
What’s the true, unassisted performance like, behind the scenes?

I’d expected that there’d be performance problems inherent with such a massive undertaking....but, that “modifications” are part of any deep engineering changes....eventually leading to superb dramatics!!

Took too much time rebuilding, re-machining, replacing, tearing apart —- all “the little pieces” of the whole engine —-trying to emulate 1940s Alco Factory practices—- instead of getting the engine properly inspected and fired-up.... .Left very little time between the initial fire-up and the ‘celebration’ trip..

Oh well, it woulda’ been fun to see the BB restored and operated  to its full capabilities... but, apparently it’s not to be...

Before the engine was removed from display in Calif, many of us had predicted that BB would be used for shooting smoke and whistling purposes only.... 
Too bad..

Wes Camp

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 11:24 by wcamp1472.



Date: 11/06/19 11:43
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: Bob3985

CPRR Wrote:
 Terribly sorry so say this, but 4014 could not pull anything without the assistance of a diesel running at notch 7 or 8.
This was proven by many people in the know that it was pushed up and down Cajon pass, with boiler pressure gauges at 180-225 psi.
There is something seriously wrong with this locomotive, and UP knows it.

Interessting, If true I might understand the lower pressure drifting downgrade but working upgrade, again if true, would indicate something amiss.
Hopefully nothing serious if there is a problem.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY



Date: 11/06/19 12:01
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: alamedafrank

Are we going to be subject to another series of crazy anti-4014 talk again? I can not  imagin a more sucessful season so far for the 4014, I do not care if your mean spirited comments are even half true, As the center of attention on the stage, the 4014 is a STAR!  Frank Rapp



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 12:03 by alamedafrank.



Date: 11/06/19 12:03
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: co614

Very credible reports from UP railroaders who have acted as pilots on different segments of the BB's travels to date have stated that the locomotive struggles to maintain anything near to full working pressure even under very light throttle. Several have reported that the fireman was forced to trade water for steam and that ( on several occassions) caused very low water situations.

   Anyone who has any real steam experience knows that they had zero time to break this machine in and that process is undoubtedly underway as we speak. Nearly all the videos with sound clearly show the diesel(s) doing the work with the BB passing  by with a very light exhaust.

    Hopefully over time the steam crew will get her up to full steaming capacity. However, always remember that UP has invested the vast sums of dollars to bring her back to life for her to travel the system as their goodwill ambassador and to 99.99999999999999% of the folks who come to trackside to witness her passing as long as the whistle works and the headlight is on  bright......all is well.  She's a show pony not a plow horse.

   Let's hope her highly successful public relations career continues winning lots of new friends for the company and the industry.

   Ross Rowland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 12:12 by co614.



Date: 11/06/19 12:49
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: wcamp1472

As I had hinted at, the conversion to oil can always be frought with problems and challenges.

I would like to see the time and effort spent, even with ‘outside expertise’, on collecting firing, drafting and steaming characteristics as presently configured.

Analysis of what the current situation is becomes the foundation for the many paths to improving firebox combustion.
The steps to a successful firebox configuration, are strewn with unsuccessful versions and big mistakes.

Edison relates the story of trying to develop a long lasting incandescent filament for his early light bulb attempts.
He related that it took over a “thousand tries” before the found the secret of tungsten, argon gas and the glass envelop.
Edsion quipped about the knowledge that he gained: that he learned a thousand ways to NOT invent the light bulb.

So in this case, I would love to witness the path to success from a Gasping Nag, to Prancing Thoroughbred for 4014.

If given the challenge, Ross could quickly assemble a team of capable, expert steam mechanics and
thermodynamics engineers that could take-on the project of perfecting this Big Boy to where he could spectacularly
perform the way Alco built him...

But, in reality, such attempts at improvements will never come about....for many reasons, the biggest being that presently there’s not the ‘managerial’  WILL to undertake the establishment of such an endeavor &  wonderful ”learning  experience”.   

We are all a little poorer for that lack of Will.
It could be a wonderful, instructive and enjoyable endeavor.
It would be a wonderful  accomplishment that Ed could be, rightfully, proud of.

Now, all he can do is hang out the cab, and wave—- as the boiler pressure sags lower and lower.
He could have a “work of Art” —— that he truly knows to be as good a Performer, as it is being
the biggest steamer on the rails.

Its a shame that Ed can’t really enjoy running BB, there’s none of that thrill of conquering a big hill —-
all by yourself, when the engine is only a rolling dud.  It truly can’t be fun, trading steam for water,
and telling people in the cab how dangerous that practice is...
Thank the gods for the drop safety plugs, if they are actually installed...

W.

Not Proofed, yet ...



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 13:07 by wcamp1472.



Date: 11/06/19 13:44
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: PHall

Would not be surprised at all if after all of the UP 150 events are over that the 4014 is set aside and eventually put back on display.



Date: 11/06/19 13:46
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: Wasatch-RR-Cont

I am going to take a vocal swing on this one.   I'm calling crap on the claims that 4014 is struggling with steam and or trading water for steam.  I'll tell you why;    I've seen cab pictures from the events and the needle is straight up, 300 psi (or super close to it).   I was at the test runs on the hill before the train left and the locomotive pulled the hill, twice, with sizzling safety valves and popped off when stopped.    In watching the track side videos from non partial photographers, there is no doubt that 4014 is pulling her guts out.  Additionally, in the videos, you can here diesels roll by with little or no motor running at all.   You hear wheel noise, but not prime mover noise.   The exhaust is pure thunder.   Nice crisp valve events, from the sounds of it.   If you watch closely, there is no sign that Ed is using the cold water injector on the engineers side of the cab. 

I can tell you from first hand riding with Ed, he doesn't like low water and if the water get's low, he will take matters into his own hands....any engineer will do that...I've done it a time or two (or more).   You don't see that happening.   The continues blow down seems to be always on, which if you really were fighting a water battle, that would be the first thing to go.   Stack is clear, Fireman, mostly looks like Austin, seems to not be worried or fighting it, plenty of time in the window (which is good if a fireman can do it, keeps you cool).   I just do not see any signs that the locomotive (or crew) is struggling.  

Now, as a professional watching and listening, here is what I see;  (Not being critical, just sharing a professional set of eyes and ears)

For some reason the rod packing is leaking again and it is not consistent.  It does not seem to be leaking under heavy load, but under lower load, seems to still be leaking.    Interesting to me.  They fixed it but it seems to have a mind of its own.   Exhaust steam injector, still more leaks in it than I would like to see.  Clearly working but could work better...still, engineer is not having to add water on his own, so must not be too big of an issue.   Looks like stay bolts weeping here and there.  Normal and even when I helped with UP Steam, just part of any trip.   I'd still love to see the cylinder and valve covers on....I am sure we will see them one day.    One of the generators may have struggled for a day or two....lights seemed dim even for day light, may have been a control issue, maybe forgot the head light had been dimmed....who knows?  

I'm just struggling to find a major issue with it......   sorry......   I call crap on cab riders who have "stories"  But....I am not there....I could very well be wrong and I can handle that.  I'm just not seein' it.

John E. Rimmasch
Wasatch Railroad Contractors



Date: 11/06/19 14:55
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: displacedneb

Todd,

Please shut this anti anti 4014 crap down before it gets legs underneath.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 11/06/19 15:05
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: PHall

displacedneb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Todd,
>
> Please shut this anti anti 4014 crap down before
> it gets legs underneath.
>
> Posted from iPhone

You know this is a "discussion" board. People discuss things and there is usually more then one view presented.
So what's the problem?



Date: 11/06/19 15:47
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: CaliforniaSteam

displacedneb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Todd,
>
> Please shut this anti anti 4014 crap down before
> it gets legs underneath.
>
> Posted from iPhone

It already has legs, and the truth is out there.  Nobody is anti 4014. Things must be looked at without rose colored glasses on. This is a discussion board and this is part of the discussion like it or not. I have reported on things while it was here in SoCal and none of it was good. From 1st hand accounts not hearsay. From pilot crews NOT cab riders. All that being said I will not post anything regarding the issues or problems on posts where people are showing their work with photo's and video's of the 4014. General discussion threads its fair game to bring up points view.

CS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 15:50 by CaliforniaSteam.



Date: 11/06/19 17:28
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: apollo17

There's one way I know of to prove 4014 does or doesn't have a low steam pressure problem. Once it gets back to Cheyenne and after the holidays are over, couple up the same train it pulled for the 150th ( leave the diesel / diesels in the yard ) give it short distance to run, maybe 5 miles or so and that might tell the tale.   



Date: 11/06/19 17:38
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: jst3751

<RANT ON>

With all due respect,
WHAT A BUNCH OF WINING CRYBABIES!

A gentleman makes an informational post about something that Big Boy 4014 is going to be doing and all the responses have been about a different topic that has been beaten to death the last several months.

Yes, this is a discussion forum. But that gives none of you the right to hijack a post for your own personal complaint or whatever.

Maybe Todd should create a new forum called "Complaints Galore"

<RANT OFF>



Date: 11/06/19 18:29
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: bankshotone

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> With all due respect, WHAT A BUNCH OF WINING
> CRYBABIES!
>
> A gentleman makes an informational post about
> something that Big Boy 4014 is going to be doing
> and all the responses have been about a different
> topic that has been beaten to death the last
> several months.
>
> Yes, this is a discussion forum. But that gives
> none of you the right to hijack a post for your
> own personal complaint or whatever.
>
> Maybe Todd should create a new forum called
> "Complaints Galore"
>
>


I get your point regarding the thread hijacking, it is unfortunate.
Sadly, even if a dedicated thread were started regarding the problems with the 4014 there would be just as many complaints against it as well.

Posted from Android



Date: 11/06/19 18:32
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: MC6853

I live in Upstate NY... Personally I'd love to see a dead Big Boy leaking steam, not running at its full potential, getting shoved by a diesel, than another accursed dull-ass set of dark blue GEVOs on the next CSX freight... I'm so bored with it I could scream...

Honestly, some of y'all bitch about this 4014 stuff endlessly, and you don't have the faintest idea how good you have it...



Date: 11/06/19 18:43
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: Wasatch-RR-Cont

This is what gets me. Of all the people in the world who has, in the past not been the biggest fan of what goes on in Cheyenne.... and having spent a huge amount of time mending all sorts of bridges and fences.... and then writing a post in pure defense of the program and what do I get.... we get guys who only see it as a complaint, not a discussion. I kinda thought I did a good job being honest and objective and giving credit where others didn’t. I tried my best.....

Oh well.....

JohnE.

From my IPhone, mistakes and all.... complain about that too!!!! :-)

Posted from iPhone



Date: 11/06/19 18:59
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: JMT-844-97

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spikes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Those planning to see the historic Union
> Pacific
> > 4014 Big Boy Locomotive in East Texas will also
> > see a second famous engine.......UP and the
> Bush
> > Foundation announced the historic engine 4014
> will
> > be pulling the George H.W. Bush locomotive 4141
> > that led last year’s presidential funeral
> train.
>
> Terribly sorry so say this, but 4014 could not
> pull anything without the assistance of a diesel
> running at notch 7 or 8. This was proven by many
> people in the know that it was pushed up and down
> Cajon pass, with boiler pressure gauges at 180-225
> psi. There is something seriously wrong withg this
> locomotive, and UP knows it.

Are you saying the pressure dropped while trying to work hard? I’ve seen video in the cab with the pressure gauge sitting at 300, but they weren’t working that hard. Also there’s little veracity to what you’re claiming besides another TO thread. I’m not disputing anything, I just want proof.



Date: 11/06/19 19:03
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: JMT-844-97

co614 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very credible reports from UP railroaders who have
> acted as pilots on different segments of the BB's
> travels to date have stated that the locomotive
> struggles to maintain anything near to full
> working pressure even under very light throttle.
> Several have reported that the fireman was forced
> to trade water for steam and that ( on several
> occassions) caused very low water situations.
>
>    Anyone who has any real steam experience
> knows that they had zero time to break this
> machine in and that process is undoubtedly
> underway as we speak. Nearly all the videos with
> sound clearly show the diesel(s) doing the work
> with the BB passing  by with a very light
> exhaust.
>
>     Hopefully over time the steam crew will get
> her up to full steaming capacity. However, always
> remember that UP has invested the vast sums of
> dollars to bring her back to life for her to
> travel the system as their goodwill ambassador and
> to 99.99999999999999% of the folks who come to
> trackside to witness her passing as long as the
> whistle works and the headlight is on 
> bright......all is well.  She's a show pony not a
> plow horse.
>
>    Let's hope her highly successful public
> relations career continues winning lots of new
> friends for the company and the industry.
>
>    Ross Rowland

What would cause this? Not enough fire?



Date: 11/06/19 19:07
Re: 4014 to join UP 4141 of presidential funeral train.
Author: CA_Sou_MA_Agent

I was at trackside a little east of Hesperia when it was returning to West Colton with the excursion train.  It was putting out some pretty good "stack talk."  I really don't know what all the fuss is about.  



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