Steam & Excursion > AT&SF 2926.. the good news, the bad news

I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this before now, but seeing as their website has been dormant for months, the news has not been available as readily as of late
TW3 – May 29, 2022
I wanted to let all our members know what has been going on via an email blast as our website is still being constructed.  Please bear with us as we are getting closer. We’ve had two groups of movie producers on site taking stills and moving locomotive shots for upcoming films and/or a contest for a filming school from Santa Fe. The jacketing is 99% complete.  Only a couple panels left and about half of the strapping completed.  This part of the restoration has been, I would say, the most frustrating project of all. Our current President, Bob DeGroft, requested we have one more steam-up prior to his departure in July.  In preparation for the event we conducted a hydro pressure test on the boiler and performed the usual staybolt tapping as required. On May 20 and 21 we fired the 2926 once again and rolled it under steam several times on our restoration site as our FRA inspector looked on. Unfortunately, we had one rear wheel and one tender wheel jump to the inside of the track.  Last week we built some heavy steel rerailing devices.  We hope to have her back on track next week.  We will then be able to survey the track and make plans for repairs as needed on the track. A bit of good news from NMDOT is that we received the “Permission to Proceed” letter for the 8th Street grade crossing.  Our contractor will have 30 days to submit all necessary forms and permits.  We expect work will be completed mid-July. The election of officers to the Board will not be conducted as we had the same number of applicants for the available positions.  The new members will be assigned their responsibilities in a Board meeting after the July Annual General meeting.  They will be voted upon by a voice vote during the Annual General Meeting
Keep on Steamin’
Rick Kirby
CMO, NMSL&RHS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/22 20:26 by Finderskeepers.

Just as I predicted 4 years ago and they had a National contractor work the track over in the end of June 2021 and he did a terrible job leaving only 4 spikes per tie.  In my prediction post I explained what was wrong and 4 spiked per tie will not hold that locomotive.  Look at all the flack I got on my post and see if 8 spikes per tie is overkill now.  It did not meet standard plans of any railroad.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,4580152,4580152#msg-4580152

Their videos showed and detailed the track work that was insufficient for that weight locomotive.  
Suggestion,  rerail the locomotive with OAK wood planks and wedges and never use any steel or metal on rerailing.  Learn track construction and strength.  As I said before, the person walking asside the moving engine did not watch the edge of wheels on the rail head that permitted this accident to happen.  I'm verry sorry to hear of this problem when I explained what was wrong in time to fix it years ago.  You need double shoulder tie plates and spikes per the standard plans of a main line of a curve. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/22 12:51 by PlyWoody.

"Unfortunately, we had one rear wheel and one tender wheel jump to the inside of the track."
Translation into Railroad lingo:  We derailed the trailing axle and lead tender axle account of wide gage by spreading rails.  Track cause account of missing spikes.

For a drooped wheel, the common tools are oak blocks and wedges, use 
the loco to pull itself up.

But, it takes an experienced engineer...you gotta be able to stop by 1/2" moves...
a little at a time..

PlyWoodie is right ....What!!  They did 2-spikes per rail, on each tie? 
How stupid is that?

​W.

Your work with 2926 has been amazing thus far, and long lasting. I am very impressed with all that I see and hear, but I have not visited your site. After I helped restore 3751 for 5 years, we had to renew the trackage from the shop to move her out. Later, we had a slight derail in another spot, but the fix was fast, a few hours. Now we have run for 30 years. There is always something, but your track will get renewed and 2926 will hit the mains. Persistance is the game. Steam On. Be safe.

If that 8 wheel truck is on sharp curves, would grease on the outside rail help? And close obervation by someone walking beside the engine. Next question, is the ridgid wheel base of the drivers longer than that of the tender truck? 

Thanks 

Sam

Now let look back 4 years to what the expert said: JST3751 

Date: 06/23/18 10:10
PlyWoody gets it wrong, way wrong
Author: jst3751 PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The construction of the track with tiny-rusty
> 4-hole plates with only 4 spikes per tie is
> insufficient construction for that weight
> locomotive. Tie plates have sharp lips on the
> bottom side which are pushed onto the cross grain
> of wood ties to help prevent their lateral
> movement. These plates were so rusted most of
> those cross ridges were rusted away and besides,
> rust is also acts a lubricant on the creosoted
> tie. The plates should have been new double
> shoulder plates with more spike holes. The holes
> have names: plates have two field holes where the
> spike is against the outside base of the rail, two
> gage holes for spikes against the inside base of
> the rail, and several plate holes on the field
> side of the plate for additional spike to prevent
> the rail from spreading as the shoulders are
> against base of the rail. The plates should have
> a cant for the base of the rail, which these
> single shoulder plates do not have any cant and
> besides, their shoulders are badly rusted.

WOW talk about open mouth and insert foot, not only are you going to have to eat a lot of crow, but you also stepped into to knee deep.

You don't have the foggiest idea of what happened, do you?

The derailment had nothing to do with the track. 

The derailment had everything to do with the construction of the pit.

End of story.

My prediction had every thing to do with the track construction and this spread rail derailment.  I only expected them to drop one wheel but they overdid my prediction and dropped two axles.  I could see it all in the video that they took and they are still around you can see the defects in the construction. What happened the end of June 2021? Did they have a derailment back then as the contractor from Phoenix had to do work on the track.  Is this the 3rd derailment?

My editorial about Carson NF was preceding the final conference where Carson NF agreed to my issue so was a stupid addition link in JST 3751 flame against me.

Do not fire up the locomotive to rerail those wheels, and Do NOT use that track mobile.  I would get a Bulldozer with some real power, or a locomotive from BNSF.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/22 13:20 by PlyWoody.

http://www.nmslrhs.org/Photos/2021/06-26/DSC06547.html

The recent problem is all in this week in end of June 2021.  Look at the video and see the air gun waste air on loose spikes.  I did not even see tie plugs installed, and after re-gage of the rails, still only 2 spikes per tie on the rail.  You do not pull rail in gage on the head of the rail as that just turns the rail.  Pull gage in where the gauge bar on the base would pull the rails into 56.5".  Has anyone ever put the 62 chord on the curve to see if it is over 10 degrees and get the correct gage for that curve?  Add 1/4 inch for each 10 degrees of curve, or 1/8" for over 5 degrees of curve.  I would request a refund from Phoenix for this failure of work if this is where the recent derailment happened.  

How sad that there are those that believe X=Y, regardless of evidence proving otherwise.

Hopefully things can get squared away and we hear of her 1ST Mainline run! At least they're learning from their mistakes!

Posted from Android

ProAmtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hopefully things can get squared away and we hear
> of her 1ST Mainline run! At least they're learning
> from their mistakes!
>
> Posted from Android

Where are they going to run?

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ProAmtrak Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hopefully things can get squared away and we
> hear
> > of her 1ST Mainline run! At least they're
> learning
> > from their mistakes!
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Where are they going to run?


And,,,,,,,,,,what will they be pulling?

HotAir,

I would hazard a guess that it would be a collection of passenger cars.  Maybe a short string of freight cars on a test run or two if BNSF is feeling helpful?

Group,
As a life long track and rail engineer and track contractor, think about when you hire a contractor to do something at your house.  Yes, you expect them to be highly qualified in their field, but in the end, they will agree to complete the scope of work that both parties have agreed upon in the signed contract.  WHat is your first thought when a contractor starts suggesting other things besides "hey, we need to replace some ties and make sure the gauge is good."...you feel like you're getting upsold.  There is a fine line in our position to gain an understanding of a customer's needs as well as their budget.  The last thing I ever want to do is try and sell somebody on something they have no intention of doing or have nowhere's near the budget to afford, though there are professional and courteous ways to tell people that they really need to spend a lot more money than they were planning on to get the finished product they really need.  I always appreciate humble customers who are willing to listen and take in some free knowlege and wisdom based on what I've learned through the years.

So, did the organization specify more than the minimum of 2 spikes per tie?  Did they even have a budget to upgrade the tie plates to double shoulder plates with additional rail-holding and anchor- spike holes?  Also, this group did not build this siding.  They obtained use of the property from the GSA with the rail spur that was already there, with the lightweight rail it came with.  WIth as challenging as it is to raise money to rebuild the locomotive, where do you think they were going to find the money to rebuild the spur or upgrade the rail to something more substantial?  WHile it is unfortunate that they have had a couple of derailments, none have been catastrophic and 

Looking forward to their next moves towards getting the 2926 out to really stretch her legs!

TrackGuy

TrackGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotAir,

Why can't you respond to my correct name, which you know perfectly well?

> I would hazard a guess that it would be a
> collection of passenger cars. 

And where would those passenger cars come from and who pays for the deadhead charges?

Maybe a short
> string of freight cars on a test run or two if
> BNSF is feeling helpful?

Why would the current management team at BNSF be "helpful"?

> TrackGuy

Haul some RailRunner passenger cars.

Out

This group is clearly struggling to get out of the "Restoration" mode and into the "Operational" mode.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/22 05:02 by dbesade.

Plywoody, well  see that what you predicted came full circle and bit them. Read some of the comments you put up with after reading the other post and still one comes back at you agin. Those who made the comments should first put why they know more than you do about spiking rail. But typical TO comments against a person glad they are not boiling the oil for you the way some were. Good Job in this post roasting them.

Now where do we go from here?
I would hope the NMSL&RRHS would finally learn that they have a great giant heavy locomotive and get serious about the track it sits on.  This is likely the 3rd derailment on their own track and they might want to operate on some main line somewheres but this is not a good example of their track knowledge.  First they should recruit a real professional Engineer of RR M&W to become a member.  After the wheels are back on the head of the rails, I would now suggest that they rebuild all the track in the curve and 30 feet beyond.

That curve track is now failed FRA qualified track.  One of the most important instructions for legal track is that it cannot show lateral movement over ½ inch on any tie.  Derailed wheel fell in because of that was exceeded, and with the wheel down the rail must be over 59 inches.  You could call it excepted track but that would just be a joke.  REBUILD the curve track with all new ties and plates.

Now, to get really serious so this will not happen again, I suggest you take all the curve track apart by setting the outer rail aside and take out every tie.  Those ties have been spiked too many times and will be just a problem again in the future. Relay them upside down of tail of siding. Place in new 7x9 Oak Creosote treated ties.  Find new double shoulder tie plates for the size of the base of the rail and spike the new ties to the standard plan of either UP or BNSF for main line curve being 8 to ten spikes per tie. Get serious, Spikes are a cheap cure.  You have been crazy to try to get away with 4 spikes per tie and some of those were put in worn out holes.  Add a field spike to every plate on tangent track
Measure you curves with a 62’ chord where each 1-inch offset equals 1 degree curve.  Since this S curve is short and sharp, mark the rail every 15.5 feet and use a 31-foot-long chord which will give results of 1” offset will indicate 4 degrees of curve. The correct gage will change 1/8” for each 5 degrees of curve.

Dig the new ties in after the one rail is set aside, add the new plates under existing rail and spike that rail securely.  Then replace the gage rail and using two gauge tools, one ahead and one behind tie being spiked, hand spike all spikes exactly vertical and do not permit the spike to touch the rail.  It must be a gap of 1/16” from lip of spike to base of rail.  If someone has the skill with a air gun to maintain the proper gap under the spike head, than an air gun could be used.   Air guns and pressure are all different so tests should be made using sound as the clue when you near the rail with the spike.  The sound changes dramatically if the spike hits the rail.  Never over strike a spike as that will reverses the wood fiber and the spike will not hold for 100 years. That is called a killed spike and will bend the neck of spike and it will come loose soon.
Never hire Mountain State Contracting again as the video of them air gunning spikes, show the spike entering a empty hole, or over hitting the spike which killed it.  I would expect to find old spikes with bent necks after their work.

If your forces dismantle the track to replace the ties, remember the most dangerous work causing injury is claw bar pulling spikes where the head breaks off and hitting a eye.  Make damm sure good eye protection is used by worker pulling spikes.  The neck of spike rots away and breaks easily.
When you make a contract for highway crossing rebuild, specify that each tie must have 12 or more spikes. Road traffic can do more damage that train movements.  Also add some timbers to the turnout on the lead-in track as that switch as a 7.5- degree curve in it if a No.10 switch.

If the rails that were set aside while ties were installed, does not fit when you attempt to put it back, water it down with a garden hose to shrink it really quick.
This whole problem I saw four years ago was using rotten rusty type 1 plates and then not using more than four spikes per tie.  Rust is like a lubricant on bottom of plate and I explained that in my original post 4 years ago.  And I saw driving spikes on an angle and over killing the spike when it was already down.  
 
 

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TrackGuy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HotAir,
>
> Why can't you respond to my correct name, which
> you know perfectly well?
>
> > I would hazard a guess that it would be a
> > collection of passenger cars. 
>
> And where would those passenger cars come from and
> who pays for the deadhead charges?
>
> Maybe a short
> > string of freight cars on a test run or two if
> > BNSF is feeling helpful?
>
> Why would the current management team at BNSF be
> "helpful"?
>
> > TrackGuy

Jack, you gotta know he's still drinking the You Know Who KoolAid! Go figure!

Good news now is they will replace their rail with 115# rail account there are no double shoulder plates the size to fit their old rail, and new ties.  The crossing will get new 115# rail for its rebuild to UP Standard Plans and hopefully all to main line curve standards.  Board of Directors will rearrange management as their President is retiring July 1, 2022.  Looks like they now understand they have a monster locomotive and there is no such thing as "overkill" on the track to hold it.