Steam & Excursion > Will N&W 611 be running at Strasburg RR in 2022?

There is a report that the 611 will be staying at Strasburg in 2022, but will not be running.

Anyone know if this is true?

From all the reports that I have read or have heard, the N&W #611 will not be in operation on the Strasburg Rail Road this year.  The engine was kept there for repairs and maintenance after last years operations.  There is a rumor that has been going around that the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke, Virginia does not have the money to pay Norfolk Southern to ship the locomotive back.  Again, according to sources that I have contacted, this is not true.  There are many people who enjoy putting rumors out here on the Internet, many of which are false.  This is all that I know at this time.  But keep in mind, things do have a way of changing, thus anything can happen.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

Be nice if they could have run some excursions on the Reading and Northern or at Steamtown. Hope the 611 can get back to Virginia. At least it's at a great place for storage and not rusting away like the C&O #614.

Posted from Android

grlhughes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be nice if they could have run some excursions on
> the Reading and Northern or at Steamtown. Hope the
> 611 can get back to Virginia.

Why? I don't believe that the museum in Roanoke has indoor storage for 611. 

At least it's at a
> great place for storage and not rusting away like
> the C&O #614.

In my opinion, the best indoor "storage"  facility for 611 is at the Historic Spensor Shops complex in North Carolina.

HotWater Wrote:
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> Why? I don't believe that the museum in Roanoke
> has indoor storage for 611. 

I read that to mean that at least in Strasburg it's at a place that is good for storage.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> grlhughes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Be nice if they could have run some excursions
> on
> > the Reading and Northern or at Steamtown. Hope
> the
> > 611 can get back to Virginia.
>
> Why? I don't believe that the museum in Roanoke
> has indoor storage for 611. 
>
> At least it's at a
> > great place for storage and not rusting away
> like
> > the C&O #614.
>
> In my opinion, the best indoor "storage"
>  facility for 611 is at the Historic Spensor
> Shops complex in North Carolina.

Spencer is a good spot except you have to pay NS to get it there and out of there to go somewhere else apparently.
At least at Strasburg it could run a few miles of their track in the future, or be close to some other eastern line where it might run.
Greg

I just don’t understand why the Virginia Transportation Museum doesn’t issue some kind of statement of what is actually going on and what the plan/goal is…. It’s like top secret information and the world may come to end if they divulge any public information. If they are short on funds by keeping quiet I believe they are hurting themselves and the many caring J611 fans. It’s almost as if the J611 party has come and gone so quickly… sadly.

Posted from iPhone

Things may have changed but NS policy (under Squires, last I heard,) wa NS would allow the steam engines to move A to B & B to A without charge once a year.  However, this was pre-verge of meltdown mode.

VMT has a nice car port /train shed for a few pieces of their equipment, but they've been through a couple of Executive Directors in the past few years -dunno if that has anything to do with it or not.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> grlhughes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Be nice if they could have run some excursions
> on
> > the Reading and Northern or at Steamtown. Hope
> the
> > 611 can get back to Virginia.
>
> Why? I don't believe that the museum in Roanoke
> has indoor storage for 611. 
>
> At least it's at a
> > great place for storage and not rusting away
> like
> > the C&O #614.
>
> In my opinion, the best indoor "storage"
>  facility for 611 is at the Historic Spensor
> Shops complex in North Carolina.

Your correct on that, but the owner of the Reading and Northern just bought a old plant for use as a shop. Would love to see steam engines like the 611 (and hopefully 614) stored there and they would have track to use for excursions to bring in cash to the organization. The 611 on a Pittston to North Reading excursion would be awesome.
https://www.wnep.com/article/news/local/carbon-county/reading-northern-railroad-buying-kovatch-kme-plant-nesquehoning/523-2e2328c5-8ccd-4d55-937f-cba2d074f89b

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/22 13:13 by grlhughes.

nsrlink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Things may have changed but NS policy (under
> Squires, last I heard,) wa NS would allow the
> steam engines to move A to B & B to A without
> charge once a year.  However, this was pre-verge
> of meltdown mode.
>
> VMT has a nice car port /train shed for a few
> pieces of their equipment, but they've been
> through a couple of Executive Directors in the
> past few years -dunno if that has anything to do
> with it or not.

VMT had recently made Mendy Flynn executive director back in late March. There's also a recent news article that the museum is suppose to recieve $500,000 from this year's state budget.
Virginia Museum of Transportation Names New Executive Director | The Roanoke Star News
Roanoke-area legislators: state budget compromise good for region | Govt. & Politics | roanoke.com

The clock is running on the 1472 (15 years).  The engine was restored and first operated in 2015.  So about 8 years left before we slip into another restoration scenario!
Glad I saw it on the mainlines in 2016 and 2017 for sure.  I sure hope it can operate some excursions sometime soon.
Greg

gregscholl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The clock is running on the 1472 (15 years).  The
> engine was restored and first operated in 2015.

How does 1472 days equal 15 years? or is it a form 1472?

LV95032 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gregscholl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The clock is running on the 1472 (15 years).
>  The
> > engine was restored and first operated in 2015.
>
> How does 1472 days equal 15 years? or is it a form
> 1472?

The FRA law/rule is basically "1472 DAYS of operation", i.e. with a fire in the firebox and pressure above atmosphere in the boiler, or "15 years",,,,,,,,,,whichever occurs first. Thus, it doesn't matter whether you ever fire the locomotive up or not, after 15 years from its last FRA boiler re-certification, it is due again for another re-certification.

LV95032 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gregscholl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The clock is running on the 1472 (15 years).
>  The
> > engine was restored and first operated in 2015.
>
> How does 1472 days equal 15 years? or is it a form
> 1472?

It doesn't equal 15 years. It equals basically 4 years of operation every single day, slightly more than was allowed under the OLD regs, prior to the updated steam rules in about 2000. Originally flues were required to be removed every 48 months of operation, with some provisions for out of service times and extensions. But if a locomotive operated one day in a month or 31 days it was counted as a month. The 2000 rule took the months out of the equation and simply allowed 1472 days of operation. But to avoid someone wanting to run their engine 1 day a year for the next 1472 years without an inspection, the 15 year cap was deemed reasonable and instated. 

Scott Gordon

The reason for "the flue removal" is not about "the flues".... it's about
inspecting the boiler's  rivets, seams and sheets where they are joined.
Calcium in the  boiler water can permeate the minute cracks and seams
at the riveted seams and joints. Steel molecules penetrated by the calcium 
makes the sheets and rivets very brittle at the seams and rivet-heads--- brittle as glass..

Cracks can grow, rivethole-to-riverhole, around a circumferential seam.
The sheet at the cracked joint can fail --- like a ripped zipper...causing a boiler explosion.

Rivets are suspect because at the time of installation, they are red-hot, driven by 
#90 air hammers, and young lads on the inner ends holding 'bucking-bars' to form
the inner rivet-heads.  The hammer-guy was the boilermaker --- he was handed the
red-hot rivet and set it into the hole. The teamwork intensity of the  "hammer-holder"
and his helper on the bucking-bar, determines the "tightness" of the hot-applied rivets...
Both ends are bouncing and rebounding---it's on the 'rebound' blow that the new
rivet-head is formed..

Thus, no two rivets get installed with exactly the same force--- and the problem is magnified
when the hot rivets cool-down and shrink under to greater tension.   Neighboring rivets
might all be driven to varying amounts of tension and 'stretch'.  A test to be done 
every 1472 days is to give each 'head' of every rivet a sharp hammer-blow to discover
cracked rivet-heads --- that break and get knocked-off...

SOOO... to get to the inner seams, below the water-line, enough flues must be removed 
to allow an inspector with his hammer to smack all the rivet heads ( below) the water-line.
You don't have to disturb any more flues than necessary to do the proper, hammer, inspection
of the riveted seams.

The only advantage to replacing ALL the flues and tubes is building the 'muscle-memory'
of the crew workers manually re-installing the hundreds replacement flues and tubes.
It is the repetition of force that leads to greater uniformity of manually 'rolling-in' the
tubes to the correct torsion & tension in the flue sheet.

OVER-ROLLING the tension in the flue ends is the common 'amateur error' committed by novices.  
Over-rolling of flues occurs when the tube-end is expanded too much, in the flue sheet using an
air-operated driving tool on the flue ( rotating) installation tool.  The flue roller tool has individual 
rollers (set at a slight angle) driven by a tapered center shaft...the further-into the tool, the larger
the diameter of the small rollers.  It's the depth of the driving, tapered pin that determines the
amount of expansion of the rollers --- into the flue sheet.

Once the flue is rolled tightly into the flue sheet, YOU STOP ROLLING!!!
Further tightening the flue-roller, makes the rolled tube-end very thin at the tube sheet ---
(ask the UP guys about that...).

Properly Operating the flue-roller air-gun requires torsion control and listening for sounds
of the air-gun as it slows --- with greater tension... & just the right force against the wrists. 
Replacing hundreds of flues leads to skilled mind-muscle coordination, both for uniform
driving of red-hot rivets and properly rolling-in each end of every flue and tube.

If you have practiced, experienced boiler workers, you only need to remove a
sufficient number of flues to allow a hammer-equipped inspector access to the inner
seams and rivets.  

Coordinate with your regional FRA inspector to ascertain whether he ( they) would be
physically entering & checking the boiler below the flues and tubes, and your intended
goals in completing the seams' inspections.

Its NOT about the 'flues and tubes' ---- their relative ratio of wall-thickness to tube diameter
is many times greater than the 1"-thick boiler shell-to-it's-diameter ( which can be a 100-inches).
The strongest pressure structures in the boiler are the flues and tubes ---- if rolled-in to the
proper tension.   Over-rolling the ends leads to broken flue-ends and tubes.

The problem with broken flues and tubes is that, when they fail,  they immediately reverse
the air-flow through the firebox, quickly extinguishing the fire and then empties the boiler's 
water down to the level of the ruptured tube/flue.  

And there you sit, all nice and eerily quiet, with a drained boiler*. ALL because inexperienced
flue-rolling team got overly-diligent and over-rolled a perfectly good set of new flues &tubes..

So, requiring the 1472-day inspections results in a new crop of young, eager
student boilermakers, ---- building-up their muscles and fine tuning their muscle-memories
as a result of properly-rolled, 800 flue-ends, per boiler.    
The more boilers they 'do', the better they get!!

ALL manually &  "precision installed" with uniformly & equally-tensioned, rolled-in flues and tubes.   
That's the REAL reason WHY we keep the 1472-days..

​wcamp1472

( * Been there. Done that. Got the Tee-shirt... #759, Baltimore, Md.
     Busted tube, different cause...)



 



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/22 12:56 by wcamp1472.

This is one of the finest if not the finest pieces of authorship I have ever encountered in all my years of reading about steam locomotive maintenance. In aviation manufacture and maintenance (I'm a structures and composite technician with American Airlines), one of the most difficult but insanely simple tasks to master is driving/bucking rivets.  It's such a refined art form that Boeing has a special pay category for "finish riveters", and they're few and far between.  Thank you for taking all the time it took to write this!

Jerry
ATSF5669

If an engine has a perfectly good set of 'young' ( under 36-years) flues and 
tubes, there's really no reason to disturb, and potentially endanger,  the flue-holes
in the flue-sheets.  That's the MAIN risk involved with yanking ALL the flues and tubes,
every 60-months --- each removal and re-install, endangers the steel of the holes,
( and separations or 'bridges' between the holes) of each flue sheet --- particularly at the,
smaller, firebox flue sheet.

The risk is greatly magnified at the firebox flue sheet.  This is because the tube ends 
at the firebox are 'Rolled, 'Flared' ...'Beaded' ..and Welded at the rear tube sheet.
Flue rolling tools are complex devices.  

Rolling the flues may involve more than simple tube expansion --- some rolls are built with
expander-rolls that expand the tube INSIDE the water space of the boiler. This sets-up a ridge
agsinst the inside of the rear tube sheet.  That process is sometimes referred to as 'Prossered' .

The next rolls, right at the hole in the flue sheet, roll & expand the tube into the hole of the 1/2"-thick 
rear tube sheet. Too much rolling here, and you've ruined the tube-end...it's now too thin !

Finally, at the same time and same tool, excess tube extending into firebox is Flared-out at a 45-degree
angle, like the wide-end of a Trumpet. 

The boilermaker then takes his #60 air hammer and inserts a tool ( with a raised 'thumb') and
curls the 45-degree Flare, back onto the flue sheet, in a nice smooth, curl..just meeting at the
flue sheet.

Finally, the curled-joint of the tube at the flue sheet, is 'seal-welded' to the tube sheet...
with a single-pass of the welder's wire.  

The reason is to form a uniform, thermally conductive joint between the tube and the flue sheet.  
Failure to complete the 'seal-weld' leads to the cold tube inside the hot hole of the tube sheet ---
---  'thermally uniform' joints are leak-proof...
( Before the aviabilty of 'stick-welding', copper rings were used at the firebox tube ends, 
  some folks prefer to continue to use both copper rings and seal welding.  
  Seal-welding has been shown to be sufficient, and the copper rings are superfluous.)

Every 5 years --- the Successful Removing of the flue ends at the firebox sheets is a
very difficult process, from peeling-off the 'seal-weld' with the #60 air hammer and a chisel point
is very risky to the flue sheet.  Next, you have to collapse the ( formerly) expanded tube
( at the firebox-end..) in order to remove the tubes out the front flue sheet...
The tubes at the front tube sheet are NOT welded. 

So, I'd recommend removing sufficient flues and tubes to perform the most
 beneficial ( interior) boiler-shell inspection, instead of yanking every flue & tube.
However, every boiler shell is its own special case; let experienced inspectors have
a look, first.

Soon, we'll discuss proper testing of firebox staybolts..

​W.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/22 14:47 by wcamp1472.