Steam & Excursion > Drone photography discussions with rail authorities

Just a question for my fellow drone pilots:
Yesterday, a railroad employee ordered me to land my drone immediately.  I complied respectfully and once I landed, the gentleman claimed that I violated federal airspace by flying over a "federal railroad".   Promises of future non-compliance would include shooting down the drone and an arrest were made.  No discussion or questions were permitted.  To the best of my knowledge, I did not violate any federal drone law. 
Details:  I flew approx. 100 feet above an Amtrak train station for the purpose of photographing it.  No trains, passengers, national parks or crowds were involved.  Frustrating, but I already had my photograph, so I left the area.  
Any similar experiences out there?

For some perspective of the scene, I have attached the subject photo.  The rail employee is standing in a bright yellow vest on the right corner of the lodge property.  I had full VLOS (visual line of sight) of my drone the whole flight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/22 17:38 by redberan4449.

---

A few questions, Ron:

1) Did the individual properly identify himself/herself? 

2) Did the individual ask for your identification?

3) How did he/she obtain such authority to confront you?

4) If you had not been using a drone, would standard camera photography also not been allowed?

5) Were you on public property?

A few years ago, we had a rogue 'rent a cop' working security for CORP in southern Oregon and far northern California.  She often identified herself as a 'TSA Agent'.  She made up the rules as she went along.  Rules which were outrageous.  Finally, some of us complained and she was gone.  When confronted on access issues, always politely ask the other to identify.  They will usuallly back down if not legitimate.

If you're not on the station property (which might be private property) and the airspace is not controlled, then it is likely an OK flight -- given you're following all other FAA guidelines for drone flight. 

FYI, Union Pacific has published formal guidance on drones. While you're speaking about Amtrak, good to note what others require. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/22 11:10 by Dak.

Drone pilots have available to them an app called B4UFLY which, in mapping format, shows you where controlled airspace is located and where you can't fly.  In addition, my DJI software also alerts me to altitude restrictions since where I live is located in an airport landing aproach location.  No other restrictions than simply the altitude I can get to.  Reading UP's policy, it basically says use common sense and follow FAA regulations.  Sounds like the employee in the original post was way out of line.

I would recommend the B4UFLY app.  It shows what airspace is restricted.  I have used it a few times to show people that the airspace is unrestricted.  The FAA partnered with the app developer so the app is supposed to very accurate.

Quick and dirty explanation: If you weren’t within 5 miles of a controlled airport or in a national park tell them to pound sand. Only the FAA has the right to control airspace and no one but the military can shoot something from the air. Especially not anyone at the railroad.

As a railroad employee, that uses drones “to be a weed weasel”, I can tell you factually that the railroads don’t own the air space above them. As has already been mentioned above unless you are restricted attitude or air space it is fair game. We use the B4UFLY app as well, it’s a great tool.

Posted from iPhone

Perhaps getting touchy because of the approaching strike?

In my many years of taking pictures as a reporter and for myself I have encountered dozens of rent a cops like this guy, even when I was standing across the street from a subject. I patiently ignored them because there was nothing they could do.

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few questions, Ron:
>
> 1) Did the individual properly identify
> himself/herself? 
>        No, but he was wearing the standard yellow, high-visibility vest.  Appeared and acted as a railroad police officer.
> 2) Did the individual ask for your
> identification?
>       No.
> 3) How did he/she obtain such authority to
> confront you?
>      Never stated.
> 4) If you had not been using a drone, would
> standard camera photography also not been
> allowed?
>     Seemed to be more concerned with drones than a ground camera.  Who knows?
> 5) Were you on public property?
        I launched from, and was standing on a lodge property.  Definitely not standing on railroad property.

 

Really appreciate ALL of your comments.  PS, I remained polite, cooperative and respectful the whole time of this encounter.
The subject rail employee (believed to be railroad police from his words, appearances and actions) left zero room for discussion or debate.  
I use the B4UFLY app before flying to avoid confrontations but this particular location in the far North gave me no internet connection before I launched.  
One poster's suggestion of a YouTube post on this subject was helpful as it represented a local police officer, not a railroad employee.  Different world. 

redberan4449 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a question for my fellow drone pilots:
> Yesterday, a railroad employee ordered me to land
> my drone immediately.  I complied respectfully
> and once I landed, the gentleman claimed that I
> violated federal airspace by flying over a
> "federal railroad".   Promises of future
> non-compliance would include shooting down the
> drone and an arrest were made.  No discussion or
> questions were permitted.  To the best of my
> knowledge, I did not violate any federal drone
> law. 
> Details:  I flew approx. 100 feet above an Amtrak
> train station for the purpose of photographing
> it.  No trains, passengers, national parks or
> crowds were involved.  Frustrating, but I already
> had my photograph, so I left the area.  
> Any similar experiences out there?

In my profession, I work closely with the FAA and train law enforcement officers on the laws surrounding unmanned aerial systems (UAS), otherwise known as drones.  Here are a few good facts:

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-federal-vs-local-drone-authority

First and foremost, the airspace above the United Stayes is the sole jurisdiction of the federal government and federal law designates the FAA as the agency that manages federal airspace.  They have created a great, free app for UAS pilots which is called B4UFLY.  Basically, if you are a drone pilot this will tell you if you can lawfully fly your UAS over a given location and any restrictions on UAS flight at that specific location.  As long as the FAA says it is okay to fly at a location, no one else can tell you differently.  We teach law enforcement officers to download this app and to use it if they receive a complaint about a drone being flown.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/b4ufly

Second, no landowner, local government, or state government can restrict the flight of drones above their property or their tow, city, state.  Local governments CAN pass a law about where UAS can be launched from or operated from, but they can't regulate use of the airspace.  If your drone lands / crashes on someone's property, you have no right to immediately enter that property to recover the drone without the permission of the property owner.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/where_can_i_fly/airspace_restrictions

There are no restrictions on flying UAS over railroad property- just as, right now, there are no restrictions on flying drones over a nuclear power plant.  I expect more restrictions to come as business groups lobby to have the laws protect their interests (much as the NCAA Div 1 football, the NFL, MLB, and NASCAR did for their events).

https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/temporary_flight_restrictions

If a UAS operator is confronted for operating legally, I suggest they do exactly as you did.  Comply with what you are being told.  However, I definitely would make sure and identify who is giving the order and under what authority.  If they refuse, I would pick up my phone, dial 911, and request an officer respond to take a report.



 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/22 17:20 by mpe383.

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quick and dirty explanation: If you weren’t
> within 5 miles of a controlled airport or in a
> national park tell them to pound sand. Only the
> FAA has the right to control airspace and no one
> but the military can shoot something from the air.
> Especially not anyone at the railroad.

Not to be too picky, but the law permits the DOJ, DOE, and DHS to shoot down a drone to protect national security.  

I didn't read the link you provided, but keep in mind that 'air space ' means different things to different airborne craft. For example, a 747 cannot hover over your swimming pool 3 feet above the water. A drone is capable of that- but is it allowed? Can a drone fly 10 feet in front of a moving train? It is certainly capable, but is it allowed? It is only occupying 'air space '.

Posted from Android

mpe383 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> redberan4449 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just a question for my fellow drone pilots:
> > Yesterday, a railroad employee ordered me to
> land
> > my drone immediately.  I complied respectfully
> > and once I landed, the gentleman claimed that I
> > violated federal airspace by flying over a
> > "federal railroad".   Promises of future
> > non-compliance would include shooting down the
> > drone and an arrest were made.  No discussion
> or
> > questions were permitted.  To the best of my
> > knowledge, I did not violate any federal drone
> > law. 
> > Details:  I flew approx. 100 feet above an
> Amtrak
> > train station for the purpose of photographing
> > it.  No trains, passengers, national parks or
> > crowds were involved.  Frustrating, but I
> already
> > had my photograph, so I left the area.  
> > Any similar experiences out there?
>
> In my profession, I work closely with the FAA and
> train law enforcement officers on the laws
> surrounding unmanned aerial systems (UAS),
> otherwise known as drones.  Here are a few good
> facts:
>
> https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-statement-federal
> -vs-local-drone-authority
>
> First and foremost, the airspace above the United
> Stayes is the sole jurisdiction of the federal
> government and federal law designates the FAA as
> the agency that manages federal airspace.  They
> have created a great, free app for UAS pilots
> which is called B4UFLY.  Basically, if you are a
> drone pilot this will tell you if you can lawfully
> fly your UAS over a given location and any
> restrictions on UAS flight at that specific
> location.  As long as the FAA says it is okay to
> fly at a location, no one else can tell you
> differently.  We teach law enforcement officers
> to download this app and to use it if they receive
> a complaint about a drone being flown.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/b4ufly
>
> Second, no landowner, local government, or state
> government can restrict the flight of drones above
> their property or their tow, city, state.  Local
> governments CAN pass a law about where UAS can be
> launched from or operated from, but they can't
> regulate use of the airspace.  If your drone
> lands / crashes on someone's property, you have no
> right to immediately enter that property to
> recover the drone without the permission of the
> property owner.
>
> https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/where_can_
> i_fly/airspace_restrictions
>
> There are no restrictions on flying UAS over
> railroad property- just as, right now, there are
> no restrictions on flying drones over a nuclear
> power plant.  I expect more restrictions to come
> as business groups lobby to have the laws protect
> their interests (much as the NCAA Div 1 football,
> the NFL, MLB, and NASCAR did for their events).
>
> https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/temporary_
> flight_restrictions
>
> If a UAS operator is confronted for operating
> legally, I suggest they do exactly as you did.
>  Comply with what you are being told.  However,
> I definitely would make sure and identify who is
> giving the order and under what authority.  If
> they refuse, I would pick up my phone, dial 911,
> and request an officer respond to take a report.
>


Great reference sources for inclusion in my flight bag.  Thank you for this information.
I regret that I did not ask for his identifying information.
 

I suggest anyone who purchases a non-toy drone to obtain a Part 135 FAA license. You take a test one time and an online refresher course every other year.  I put about 30 hours into studying and I fell a question or two away from a perfect score. It will give you more confidence to fly and to standup to big mouth people. You get an FAA license card that looks the same as the one pilots gets. Identifying yourself as a licensed pilot will also help with public interactions. 


 

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

P Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't read the link you provided, but keep in
> mind that 'air space ' means different things to
> different airborne craft. For example, a 747
> cannot hover over your swimming pool 3 feet above
> the water. A drone is capable of that- but is it
> allowed? Can a drone fly 10 feet in front of a
> moving train? It is certainly capable, but is it
> allowed? It is only occupying 'air space '.
>
> Posted from Android

That would make sense, right?  But, the law does not always make sense.  When I teach, my goal is to ensure law enforcement officers know the law so that they do not accidentally violate a drone operators rights and find themselves involved in a lawsuit,  I suggest you further educate yourself.

In the US, airspace has a single legal meaning, as does aircraft.  US law, for better or worse, considers the small drone you get from your kids for Christmas to be an aircraft, the same as a single engine Cessna or a 747.  A person damaging a drone in flight faves the same criminal penalty as someone who attempts to damage an overflying helicopter or airliner.

This could change.  Congress is being lobbied hard by many different factions about drone laws, those groups who want more regulation and those who want less.  


 

Regarding yellow vests. The wearing of a plastic yellow “Class Identifer” does not endow the wearer with powers greater than those of mere mortal men. I’ve got one of the stupid things in my grip and you can go buy one at Walmart if you want to be just like all the other “drones”.

Wish I had been the inventor of yellow vests, I would be a billionaire by now.

Regards

Posted from iPhone

I live in rural northern California and drones are rarely seen either in or around the towns or out in the countryside. I've never seen one along the Sierra Northern's right of way.

While I know of no nefarious activities in this area, I do know many people have a very, very, low tolerance for drones over-flying their properties or residences at lower elevations. Rightly or wrongly many people just see it as another form of tresspass. In some areas flying one's drone at treetop or less elevation around would offer the same odds of getting back to base as a lone B-17 flying in daylight over Germany in 1943.

John Mills