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Steam & Excursion > A rare Frisco flopDate: 01/14/23 14:56 A rare Frisco flop Author: Frisco1522 In 1910, Frisco joined in the Mallet craze, buying 7 2-8-8-2s from American Locomotive Works thinking they would be the answer to the problem of getting over the Springfield-Thayer,MO hill and dale line. Didn't work well, so they tried them from St. Louis-Springfield with the same results.
They bounced around the system and finished their careers in Birmingham handling coal trains. By the mid '30s they were history. My Dad told me that they leaked from every pore and caused problems seeing ahead. Date: 01/14/23 15:40 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: MaryMcPherson Lemme guess... powerful enough but overly expensive to maintain and slower than Forrest Gump.
Mary McPherson Dongola, IL Diverging Clear Productions Date: 01/14/23 15:58 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: santafe199 Wow... looks like a kid wearing his father's dress shoes...
;^) Date: 01/14/23 16:04 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: wcamp1472 Notice the proportions of the grate area to the two engines gasping for steam.
That grate area looks to be about 70 to 80 sq ft. It also predated the wide application of superheating, and I'd bet that its NOT superheated ....again the greatest factor to generating sustained pressure is limited volume of the firebox. Note the steam pipe ( middle of the boiler) leaving the boiler, and entering the top of the rear (H.P.) cylinders. That proves that the engine is running on heat-saturated steam..... not superheated. The steam leaving the boiler is the same temperature as the water that generated it. Every foot of piping between the boiler and the pistons lowers the steam temperature ... There's a lot of hot water hitting the pistons.... but, not contributing any 'work'.. Also, note that successful coal stokers were not coming until 10 years in the future. Too many cylinders, not enough steam volume, at a decent pressure. Instead of chug-chug-chug, it's mush-mush-mush.. W. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/23 16:31 by wcamp1472. Date: 01/14/23 16:31 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: ironmtn It may have been a flop, but they are still neat images. Thanks for posting them.
MC Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/23 19:23 by ironmtn. Date: 01/14/23 18:00 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: tomstp Not a single thing about it says "Frisco". But it sure had a lot of ugly sisters in the whole country.
Date: 01/14/23 19:10 Re: A rare Frisco flop Author: Evan_Werkema wcamp1472 Wrote:
> Notice the proportions of the grate area to the two engines gasping for steam. That grate area looks to be about 70 to 80 sq ft. Good eye! According to steamlocomotive.com, they had 75.4 square feet of grate area. https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=2-8-8-2&railroad=slsf > It also predated the wide application of superheating, and I'd bet that its NOT superheated According to the same site, they were built without superheaters but were eventually superheated in the 1920's. Here are before and after photos of SLSF 2007: http://rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf-s2007a08.jpg http://rr-fallenflags.org/slsf/slsf-s2007ggC.jpg > The steam leaving the boiler is the same temperature as the water that generated it. > Every foot of piping between the boiler and the pistons lowers the steam temperature ... > There's a lot of hot water hitting the pistons.... but, not contributing any 'work'.. That tired, wet steam then had to go forward to the low pressure cylinders and expand again. Did Alco's design include reheaters for the "used" steam akin to what Baldwin separable boilers had? Date: 01/14/23 19:52 Re: A rare Frisco f Author: wcamp1472 It's amazing to see the difference superheating makes.
The N&W Y-class engines, with REALLY effective superheaters were very effective haulers. They could put out full power, hours on end, shoving trains up hill or hauling long strings of loaded coal cars. Take away the superheater, and they'd be as effective as the original 1910 beast., An underappreciated aspect of the success of the Y-class is the very effective proportions of the grate area to the firebox dimensions, as well as the combustion chamber and superheater proportions. That design craft is poorly understood, but errors there ( on the drawing boards) can make the difference between an average steam producer and a race-horse... The Ys routinely started their trains in 'simple' ( live steam) supplied to all cylinders, then switched to compound when underway. Obviously, a flow-control, steam regulating valve supplied steam to the larger, low pressure pistons, at a live steam- pressure appproximating the pressure of the once-used steam supplied from the HP cylinders. What is not much appreciated is the fact that, in 'compound, the HP cylinders are pushing the LP pistons, when in compound.... the pressure in the receiver-pipe ( feeding the LP pistons) is maintained by the HP pistons keeping that receiver-pipe pressure at near 120 psi... and it's temperature is still 'superheated' --- well above 'condensing temps' ----- but, the steam's temperture is lower, because the pressure is lower ----- and is still superheated, at that lower pressure. In fact, you may have superheated steam being exhausted up the smokestack. W. Date: 01/14/23 23:14 Re: A rare Frisco f Author: Mgoldman So this brings up an interesting question:
What happens when a railroad purchases a new type of locomotive, or even a proven design only to discover it lacks the hoped for desire? Obviuosly this would be more an issue on a new untested design that does not test well, but even it its a proven design, is it all on the railroad or the "salesman" who sold a railroad on a design that poorly performs in its desired use? Wild shots - who knew? /Mitch Date: 01/15/23 10:40 Re: A rare Frisco f Author: callum_out Railroad signs off on the design so along the way someone was leading them down the primrose path. Most
obvious retribution was changing locomotive sources on subsequent buys. Out Date: 01/15/23 21:24 Re: A rare Frisco f Author: weather Great info and explanation Wes! many thanks.
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