Nostalgia & History > beaumont hill train handling questions for steamjocky

jde, if you've already shared this info, please forgive.

Q: was the kaiser ore (pat bray called it the "ferrum perishable") the toughest train handling challenge over beaumont?

Q: assuming that the headend hogger faced the biggest task (?), was working the midtrain helper a more difficult assignment than working the rear end helper?

My limited knowledge of train handling suggests that having tonnage pulling on both ends of the midtrain helper at the top of the hill made life interesting for the midtrain hoghead!

Love to hear your thoughts! regards, eljay

Anyone remember the story on this operation in Trains magazine many years ago? The cover said "THE HILL". One of my favorite articles.

JDE,

Let's make this a tough question, we'll give you "Stinky" on the swing, in a bad mood, and the "Camel Jockey" on the rear, just being his old train handling self. Describe the trip for all of us. Then give us a dissertation on the "Beets" with the same crew. Have fun, I'm dying to read the answers to this question.

SOB


eljay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jde, if you've already shared this info, please
> forgive.
>
> Q: was the kaiser ore (pat bray called it the
> "ferrum perishable") the toughest train handling
> challenge over beaumont?
>
> Q: assuming that the headend hogger faced the
> biggest task (?), was working the midtrain helper
> a more difficult assignment than working the rear
> end helper?
>
> My limited knowledge of train handling suggests
> that having tonnage pulling on both ends of the
> midtrain helper at the top of the hill made life
> interesting for the midtrain hoghead!
>
> Love to hear your thoughts! regards, eljay

SOB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JDE,
>
> Let's make this a tough question, we'll give you
> "Stinky" on the swing, in a bad mood, and the
> "Camel Jockey" on the rear, just being his old
> train handling self. Describe the trip for all of
> us. Then give us a dissertation on the "Beets"
> with the same crew. Have fun, I'm dying to read
> the answers to this question.
>
> SOB
>
>
Just glad I wasn't the condr in your scenario SOB.......What a bad day that would have turned out to be !!!

V

SLOCONDR

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > JDE,
> >
> > Let's make this a tough question, we'll give
> you
> > "Stinky" on the swing, in a bad mood, and the
> > "Camel Jockey" on the rear, just being his old
> > train handling self. Describe the trip for all
> of
> > us. Then give us a dissertation on the "Beets"
> > with the same crew. Have fun, I'm dying to read
> > the answers to this question.
> >
> > SOB
> >
> >
> Just glad I wasn't the condr in your scenario
> SOB.......What a bad day that would have turned
> out to be !!!

Or let's make this really interesting with 'DDB', alias 'Dumb Dumb', alias 'Double Door', alias 'Dangerous Dan' as the con with two newbie brakies!

Patiently awaiting your reply. :)

Charlie

In the steam age, how many AC's were used per train over Beaumont? Recall a pic in TRAINS sometime in the mid-50's showing a Mogul leading an AC up hill. TIA.

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or let's make this really interesting with 'DDB',
> alias 'Dumb Dumb', alias 'Double Door', alias
> 'Dangerous Dan' as the con with two newbie
> brakies!
>
> Patiently awaiting your reply. :)
>
> Charlie

For cryin' out loud Charlie... what hat did ya pull that name out of?? haven't even given him a thought in years and years, but now that you mention it.....this is the guy that would walk into the caboose and count how many cigarette butts and what brands they were and record that info in his infamous little note book. AND, break up furniture when he would get bumped, and causing hid sister to call the SP to ask them not to let her brother get bumped 'cause he would ruin the furniture. AND, light fields on fire with his flare gun when recalling his rear brakeman in from flagging. I'm sure SteamJocky could tell a few about, as I KNOW you can....

V

SLOCONDR

eljay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jde, if you've already shared this info, please
> forgive.
>
> Q: was the kaiser ore (pat bray called it the
> "ferrum perishable") the toughest train handling
> challenge over beaumont?
>
> While we are waiting for steamjocky to get back in town I thought I'd post this of your (and our) friend.
Now I ask ye, does this look like somebody who would lower hisself to working on the 'Nuggets'?

5 points if anybody can guess the occasion for Pat getting gussied up like this?

Charlie

---

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cewherry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Or let's make this really interesting with
> 'DDB',
> > alias 'Dumb Dumb', alias 'Double Door', alias
> > 'Dangerous Dan' as the con with two newbie
> > brakies!
> >
> > Patiently awaiting your reply. :)
> >
> > Charlie
>
> For cryin' out loud Charlie... what hat did ya
> pull that name out of?? haven't even given him a
> thought in years and years, but now that you
> mention it.....this is the guy that would walk
> into the caboose and count how many cigarette
> butts and what brands they were and record that
> info in his infamous little note book. AND, break
> up furniture when he would get bumped, and causing
> hid sister to call the SP to ask them not to let
> her brother get bumped 'cause he would ruin the
> furniture. AND, light fields on fire with his
> flare gun when recalling his rear brakeman in from
> flagging. I'm sure SteamJocky could tell a few
> about, as I KNOW you can....
>
> Yep, the same one. The one who had his newbie brakie at Indio look at the V-belt on the caboose generator and then when the kid had his fingers in peril told the hogger to pull on 'em, wrapping said kids digits around the belt drive wheel!!! Dan paid for the kids medical bills on that one. Oh, yes I gould go on.

Charlie

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 5 points if anybody can guess the occasion for Pat
> getting gussied up like this?

All You Can Eat Donut Day over at Van de Kamps?

No?

Then I'd say it must have somethin' to do with the arrival of a steam engine.

Remember, with 'ole D.D. ... You didn't even have to speak to him to have him write something down in that little book. Somewhere he must have had 100's of those books... the 'ramblings' of an _______ ! You may fill in the blank. Now, let's not speak of 'Catman', or we'll have to get another thread started!

Take Care, Stay Safe, Have Fun!

Larry

NYCSTL8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the steam age, how many AC's were used per
> train over Beaumont? Recall a pic in TRAINS
> sometime in the mid-50's showing a Mogul leading
> an AC up hill. TIA.

After re-reading your post I see I have possibly mis-read your question. The following is in regard to iron ore trains. As far as other trains I suppose any and all combinations could be seen during the steam years.

The aforementioned Pat Bray authored an article in the Winter 1996 issue of "SP Trainline", the official publication of the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society wherein he writes: "The early ore trains would consist of 70 gons, with a total train tonnage of 7,600 tons." ".....SP would assign one of its big 4100/4200 AC mallies to deliver the empties and deliver the empties and return to Indio with the loads. At Indio there would be a crew change, and a second Mallie would be cut in just ahead of the caboose." Later he adds: "Even two of SP's largest engines were not enough power to tackle 'The Hill'. So, at one of the first sidings west of Indio, a swing helper would be cut in about one-third of the way back in the train from the headend". Answer: 3.

John Signor in his book Beaumont Hill says essentially the same differing only with the location of the swing helper; Signor places the swing at "mid-train". Again, answer: 3.

NYCSTL8 wrote:

>Recall a pic in TRAINS sometime in the mid-50s showing a Mogul leading an AC up hill.


There is a Stan Kistler photo taken in November 1952 of a Mogul leading a 97-car freight train up the grade. Making this feat possible were an AC-4 and another Mogul working as helpers cut in ahead of the caboose. The two Moguls were working their way to the Imperial Valley for local use. Page 242 of Church's "Cab-Foward" has Kistler's photos of the train. Kistler's photo of the head end of the train can also be found on pg. 275 of Beebe's "The Central Pacific and the Southern Pacific Railroads" but the two helpers pictured on pg. 274 purportedly showing the rear of the train were of completely different locomotives on a different train at a different time and probably on a different route. Typical Beebe sloppy/phony photo captions.

The Nov./Dec. 1995 issue of Rail Classics had an article about road foremen of engines Bob Kern and Roger Boone on the West Colton-Indio line with some info about the criteria for using helpers (article was on pages 9-19). Check with www.railpub.com for issue availability.

AmtkGP7 wrote:

>Anyone remember the story on this operation in
Trains magazine many years ago? The cover said
"THE HILL".


The article was in the February 1985 issue. Photocopies could be obtained by contacting the Calif. State Railroad Museum Library or Kalmbach Publishing (the article started on pg. 22 but I don't know the page it ended).

As I recall, the article said that if an engineer went down the grade too slowly, he was demoted to yard service. If he was caught going too fast down the grade, he was fired (at least temporarily).

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cewherry Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Or let's make this really interesting with
> 'DDB',
> > alias 'Dumb Dumb', alias 'Double Door', alias
> > 'Dangerous Dan' as the con with two newbie
> > brakies!
> >
> > Patiently awaiting your reply. :)
> >
> > Charlie
>
> For cryin' out loud Charlie... what hat did ya
> pull that name out of?? haven't even given him a
> thought in years and years, but now that you
> mention it.....this is the guy that would walk
> into the caboose and count how many cigarette
> butts and what brands they were and record that
> info in his infamous little note book. AND, break
> up furniture when he would get bumped, and causing
> hid sister to call the SP to ask them not to let
> her brother get bumped 'cause he would ruin the
> furniture. AND, light fields on fire with his
> flare gun when recalling his rear brakeman in from
> flagging. I'm sure SteamJocky could tell a few
> about, as I KNOW you can....
>
> V
>
> SLOCONDR

He worked as the head "bun" on a trip to Indio with my grandfather (Tex) and kept walking over and standing behind him when they would go around right curves, had to inspect the train you know. Tex finally asked him if he didn't trust him to roll his side of the train and would he mind not standing behind him as it crowded him in his seat. DD just looked up and started writing in his little notebook. At the next left curve (leaving Garnet eastbound) my grandfather walked over to DD's side, rolled the train through the rear window then reached into DD's shirt pocket, removed his notebook and threw it out the window and admonished him to pay attention to his work and to stop wasting time taking notes while he was working. He also asked the conductor to have a chat with DD when they arrived at Indio and to instruct him to pay attention to his work. DD never wrote another word in the notebook when he worked with Tex! My little addition to the history of DD. I have a better story about DD working as my conductor and making a trip east on the State Street Line, but that's better told later.

SOB

SOB

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > JDE,
> >
> > Let's make this a tough question, we'll give
> you
> > "Stinky" on the swing, in a bad mood, and the
> > "Camel Jockey" on the rear, just being his old
> > train handling self. Describe the trip for all
> of
> > us. Then give us a dissertation on the "Beets"
> > with the same crew. Have fun, I'm dying to read
> > the answers to this question.
> >
> > SOB
> >
> >
> Just glad I wasn't the condr in your scenario
> SOB.......What a bad day that would have turned
> out to be !!!
>
> V
>
> SLOCONDR

Better throw in Gail McKeemy for good measure. he always loved catching the ore train. Leo Brynes used to tell the story of coming down the hill with a nameless engineer. When the train and crew arrived Old Colton.. Leo said, " there was not enough air left in the train to ring the bell!"
Yes throw in Catman as the head brakie and PJ Poulis as the rear man! All section 8 recipients

eljay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jde, if you've already shared this info, please
> forgive.
>
> Q: was the kaiser ore (pat bray called it the
> "ferrum perishable") the toughest train handling
> challenge over beaumont?
>

It could be. Working out of Colton and West Colton I never did handle the ore train down Beaumont Hill on the head end but worked the "swing", or middle helper, about a ga-zillion times. While working the engineer's extra board out of Indio I did catch the rear helper of the ore train but only that once with Marvin "Main Line" Foley on the head end as there were no rested West Pool engineers. I worked my butt off back there! Normally, the swing helper, was to shut off and go into a light dynamic (normal power was 4 SD35s) at about Beaumont Ave. while the rear helper was working a light throttle or just getting ready to go into dynamic.

> Q: assuming that the headend hogger faced the
> biggest task (?), was working the midtrain helper
> a more difficult assignment than working the rear
> end helper?

I think the rear helper had the hardest job as it was (normally) his job to help regulate the speed down the stairstep grade from Beaumont to Loma Linda. Not all engineers on the head end had the rear helper do this. The swing helper had the easiest job as far I'm concerned. There are others on here who could describe in detail what it was like to handle the ore train down the hill with both sets of helpers in the train.

As an aside, Beaumont Hill, in my opinion, had the safest and the most dangerous trains to handle. The safest was the ore train as all of the ore gons were equipped with the ABDEL brake system which made train handling easier. It was the only train that exceeded 80 tons per car that was allowed a speed of 25 mph down the hill versus a regular freight train that exceeded 80 tons per car. Not bad for a train that averaged 134 tons per car.

The most dangerous were the sugar beet trains. The cars were all originally built in 1948, which is the year I was born, and they were all older than myself. The also had the "older" type AB control valve for the brake system. It, like the ore train, was restricted to a maximum speed of 45 mph on the flat, but was only authorized a speed of 20 down the hill. I'm sure you could imagine what the smell was like in the summer with the smell of sugar beets and the smell of hot oil that had leaked from the journals and onto the wheels while descending Beaumont Hill.

>
> My limited knowledge of train handling suggests
> that having tonnage pulling on both ends of the
> midtrain helper at the top of the hill made life
> interesting for the midtrain hoghead!
>
> Love to hear your thoughts! regards, eljay


Did I cover everything?

JDE

SOB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JDE,
>
> Let's make this a tough question, we'll give you
> "Stinky" on the swing, in a bad mood, and the
> "Camel Jockey" on the rear, just being his old
> train handling self. Describe the trip for all of
> us. Then give us a dissertation on the "Beets"
> with the same crew. Have fun, I'm dying to read
> the answers to this question.
>
> SOB
>
>
I won't have to as I'm going to lay off on the call with that crew!

JDE

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Or let's make this really interesting with 'DDB',
> alias 'Dumb Dumb', alias 'Double Door', alias
> 'Dangerous Dan' as the con with two newbie
> brakies!
>
> Patiently awaiting your reply. :)
>
> Charlie


What is this? Pick on the Bakersfield Boy Night? I'm laying off on this call too. The only name you left out was Phil Garbo! Sheesh! With friends like you two, who needs enemies?

JDE

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> > While we are waiting for steamjocky to get back
> in town I thought I'd post this of your (and our)
> friend.
> Now I ask ye, does this look like somebody who
> would lower hisself to working on the 'Nuggets'?
>
> 5 points if anybody can guess the occasion for Pat
> getting gussied up like this?
>
> Charlie


Yes it does. He must be waiting for the arrival of the AFT with Vince "Beanie" Sitker in 1976. Gee whiz, were we ever that young? I can smell Van DeKamps bakery just by looking at the photo.

JDE