Nostalgia & History > Why Did EMD Switch Control Stands E7/F7 & F9 to E8/E9?

I'm sure that some can supply photos if others need to see the difference here--while others will recall the difference? That from the EMD E3s (if not earlier) on up to the E7As (with the E7As in particular having a virtually identical "Barrel Style Control Stand" for the throttle quadrant, reverser, selector lever, and DBs--if available, and DBs more likely to be available on E8s/E9s than on the earlier [that could be a discussion within itself, E7s and below that had DBs?], but...)...

Why did EMD go to the more ALCO PA-like wrap-around control stand with the E-8A from the E-7A with was a somewhat radical departure from what had gone before, but, did NOT do so for the transition from the F7 to the F9s? And I might need a bit of fine-tuning with my memory, but as I recall--the introductions of the E9 psgr locomotives at least "roughly coincided"--if not almost to the year--with the switchover from frt F-7As to F-9As? Why didn't EMD/GM, that most STANDARDIZED of organizations--sinply just go with an "All-for-All Approach" with regard to their control stands? And please, anybody that may have photos representing this, this would be MOST WELCOME. And, to further complicate it, there were examples such as the ATSF E8AMs, rebuilt out of much older E-Units which used the older "Barrel-Type Control Stands" identical to those on F-Units--NOT those used in E8/E9 locomotives--as well as even late-build UPRR E-9As (early 1960s) also rebuilt from earlier E-Units--using the control stands from the traded in power from the older power which was traded in, which is understandable. But which confused me when I was much younger until I sort of figured it out.

Then you have the variety of GP-9 control stands, which began as pretty much look-alikes to their (at first) F-Unit contemporaries, but which in late-model production (and not to get off on a Geep tangent here), evolved into the so-called "Cash Register Control Stand" that would end up on the GP-18 models, and which was fairly similar to the control stands on the GP30s and GP35s, and indeed, SD40s of the 1960s?

And to throw a further "Monkey Wrench" into this are the FL-9s, built deeper--but not MUCH--into the 1960s than the last E9 built for the UPRR which in fact had control stands that looked almost like GP30/35 control stands? For reference on this I can only point to older issues of Trains Magazine which showed this in the FL-9s.

So of course there was an "Evolution in Control Stands," which I PERFECTLY understand. And, with regard to say, the ATSF E8Ams, the last UP E9s, and the KCS E9s (all built upon the frames of trade-in older model E-Units)...very understandable that they'd simply use the traded-in control stands of the units that were traded in for them. While the FL-9s were deeper into the '60s and while GP30s were in production. [Sort of like a decade-plus later, the Amtrak "F40PHRs" used the prime movers, traction motors, and control stands of the SDP40Fs which had been traded in for them after the first batch of AMTK F40PHs, Nos. 200-229 had been delivered, all of which were virtually idential equipment).

But back to my original point: why didn't that company which was so into "Standardization," EMD, continue to supply their F-9As and E-9As with DIFFERENT control stands? Or rather (and I'm not sure to what extent E8 and F9 production overlapped--if ANY--at least why didn't the F9s introduced pretty much alongside the E9s--get the same control stands as the newer E-Units?)... Aside from the later units that were trade-ins?

I know that I've introduced some broad subjects into this topic, but I also recall that from the Amtrak hoghead who wrote the book "In the Cab"--can't recall his name but will come back and edit this or perhaps somebody can supply his name--who began on the SCL and ran the original Auto Train but also fired on various AMTK trains with AMTK E-Units in the lead included in one chapter an aside where he was going through a locomotive consist and was surprised to find that his 2nd unit in the consist in the early 1970s had an "AAR Control Stand" (as on the then-new SD40-2s of the time) in the cab. And wondering how many AMTK E9s got this treatment? [Even with the delivery of the first 40 EMD SDP40Fs, for those of you that have that 1973 issue of Trains with the cover and main article "Power for the People," Amtrak at that time STILL loved the E9s, and was reclassifying ALL E-Units being rebuilt into "E9s," whatever their original designation. Perhaps the "Trains Curse...LOL?!?" as shortly after that article was published and the prediction of an "E-10" rebuild for the fleet, similar to what the BN was doing to their commute fleet, then came the rest of the SDP40F fleet which pretty much wiped out the AMTK E-Unit fleet and any other such "upgrades" or anything other than just keeping what they had going regarding E-Units other until the new EMDs and GE P30CHs and F40s came online)...

I purposefully made this rather "broad" about the early-to-mid Amtrak era, but hoping not to LOSE the original EMD Question about why not STANDARDIZE the control stands in the E9 & F9 units being built simultaneously on their shop floors during the early 1950s until the end of production of both lines?

The barrel style controller stayed with the SP until the engine went in for a major overhaul. The old drums were hard to get parts for, just like the FMs. The relays were air operated, all old school stuff. The air brakes had been changed over but not the electric.

It was easier for the SP to yard out the drum and replace it with a modern panel that was standard at that time.

After the GE wreck in 1969, the feds got together with the carriers and unions, and came up with a standard control stand. Everything (handles, elec or air) that moved away from the engineer or towards the front of the locomotive was "braking" so to speak. The power handle would reduce the engine to idle. The DB handle would increase the amount of braking. The independent brake handle would apply the engine brakes and the automatic brake valve would set the train brakes.

After that, new or rebuilt locomotives had a standard controller. Enter the Desk Top and it was the same. I think now they are going back to the panels they used in the early 70s. A lot of the engineers didn't like the desk top type controllers and they were knee killers.



Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The barrel style controller stayed with the SP
> until the engine went in for a major overhaul. The
> old drums were hard to get parts for, just like
> the FMs. The relays were air operated, all old
> school stuff. The air brakes had been changed over
> but not the electric.
>
> It was easier for the SP to yard out the drum and
> replace it with a modern panel that was standard
> at that time.
>
> After the GE wreck in 1969, the feds got together
> with the carriers and unions, and came up with a
> standard control stand. Everything (handles, elec
> or air) that moved away from the engineer or
> towards the front of the locomotive was "braking"
> so to speak. The power handle would reduce the
> engine to idle. The DB handle would increase the
> amount of braking. The independent brake handle
> would apply the engine brakes and the automatic
> brake valve would set the train brakes.
>
> After that, new or rebuilt locomotives had a
> standard controller. Enter the Desk Top and it was
> the same. I think now they are going back to the
> panels they used in the early 70s. A lot of the
> engineers didn't like the desk top type
> controllers and they were knee killers.
>
>
>
> Nudge

You're right, Nudge--all of the SD70ACes and GE ES44ACs (units built since 2005) have the same basic control stand as the SD40-2, but with computer screens--a nice setup. But regarding replacement of the barrel control stands on the SP, didn't this mostly happen to Geeps? (I'm excluding modern Executive F-Units and E-Units and such in the above discussion, but in as-built condition). Why EMD chose to put a different control stand in E8/E9s that it was still putting in F-Units, and had been putting in earlier E-Units up until the E-7 (which were barrel-type control stands identical to those in F-Units?).

Calling on EVERYBODY who has any AS-BUILT photos of E8/E9s and F7 cabs for comparison purposes to show what I'm talking about, here. As built, please. Then later we could get into variations such as the UPRR's rebuilt E9s or NS Executive F9s, but until we get the as-built configurations up, later rebuilt configurations would only serve to sow confusion. I have photos, but none that I could use here on TO as they are copy-righted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/14 10:28 by Red.

Well, I found an old thread of mine from 2005 titled "Cab Interior Photo Extravaganza" that has the newest power at that time (FRT & PSGR) with three pages of photos. Lots of F-Unit cab interior photos. On page 1, the next to the last photo, one can find a photo by PS68 of a beat up old BN commute E9 cab interior (note how similar it is to the Alco PA control stand featured by TO Member PhotoBob, "Robert Morris Photography"), but showing the difference between it and the "Barrel Type" control stands in the F-Units in many of the other photos:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,980509,page=3



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/14 12:28 by Red.

Here's CRI&P 652, an E8 (I think). It was sitting on the Midland Railway at Baldwin City, KS. Has since been moved to KC for eventual paint & repair. I don't know how much of the control stand is original.

---

DDG,

Thanks for the excellent shot of the CRI&P E-8A 652 cab!!! (Only the segment of switches such as generator field, etc. are obscured by the black drape hanging behind the control stand here), but this shows the shape of the NON-Barrel Control Stand of the E-8A here--which as can be seen--is built into the dashboard rather than a standalone "barrel" with throttle, reverser, selector lever, and dynamic braking lever--if applicable. Now if we can just get ONE shot to follow of an as-BUILT F7 or F9 (NOT the NS 4270 or one of the KCS Executive Fs with Modernized control stands--that can come later if folks wish to add in how units have been modified over the years, including the NS 4270, UP 951, etc., perhaps even a shot of a PA to show how similar it is to the RI 652), but an F-Unit with the original "Barrel-Type" control stands as per standard equipment on the FTs, F3s, F7s, & F9s, as well as the E-Units up to the E-7As--as it was the E-8A like the 652 above that exemplefies the almost "Alco PA-like" control stand that demonstrates what I'm talking about. And wondering why EMD/GM, which was so into standardization, would be putting a different control stand in contemporary production models being built side-by-side at LaGrange, IL??? And if nobody has the answer, at least we'll be able to illustrate the differences that I'm talking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/14 16:52 by Red.

The first is Sp 6378 f7a at least thats what I have labeled. , second is the ILRM E% CB&Q 9911 any help ?

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DDG,
>
> Thanks for the excellent shot of the CRI&P E-8A
> 652 cab!!! (Only the segment of switches such as
> generator field, etc. are obscured by the black
> drape hanging behind the control stand here), but
> this shows the shape of the NON-Barrel Control
> Stand of the E-8A here--which as can be seen--is
> built into the dashboard rather than a standalone
> "barrel" with throttle, reverser, selector lever,
> and dynamic braking lever--if applicable. Now if
> we can just get ONE shot to follow of an as-BUILT
> F7 or F9 (NOT the NS 4270 or one of the KCS
> Executive Fs with Modernized control stands--that
> can come later if folks wish to add in how units
> have been modified over the years, including the
> NS 4270, UP 951, etc., perhaps even a shot of a PA
> to show how similar it is to the RI 652), but an
> F-Unit with the original "Barrel-Type" control
> stands as per standard equipment on the FTs, F3s,
> F7s, & F9s, as well as the E-Units up to the
> E-7As--as it was the E-8A like the 652 above that
> exemplefies the almost "Alco PA-like" control
> stand that demonstrates what I'm talking about.
> And wondering why EMD/GM, which was so into
> standardization, would be putting a different
> control stand in contemporary production models
> being built side-by-side at LaGrange, IL??? And if
> nobody has the answer, at least we'll be able to
> illustrate the differences that I'm talking about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/14 17:29 by kingman.

---

---

The next to last picture shows some changes that were made at the time it was taken. The push button switches started out up in the trough above the window on the hogheads side. It wound up where you see it now. In its place, they put in a "Mars Lite Control" box up where the switches used to be. The air looks unchanged but the old drinking cup holder is hanging in there behind the Barco. The fact everything is in B&W so its hard to tell who the owner was. "Sea Foam Green" would place it as an SP motor back then.

The first pic looks like an Alco control stand. Those took a steel bar with pins in it for a reverser. They have an old plastic handle hanging where the bar should be.


Nudge



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/14 18:01 by spnudge.

SP Alco stand from another great Robert Morris Picture.
spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The next to last picture shows some changes that
> were made at the time it was taken. The push
> button switches started out up in the trough above
> the window on the hogheads side. It wound up where
> you see it now. In its place, they put in a "Mars
> Lite Control" box up where the switches used to
> be. The air looks unchanged but the old drinking
> cup holder is hanging in there behind the Barco.
> The fact everything is in B&W so its hard to tell
> who the owner was. "Sea Foam Green" would place it
> as an SP motor back then.
>
> The first pic looks like an Alco control stand.
> Those took a steel bar with pins in it for a
> reverser. They have an old plastic handle hanging
> where the bar should be.
>
>
> Nudge

---

Here's what the cab/control stand of NS 4270 looks like.

---

Yes, in DDG's shot of the CRI&P of the E-8A 652 compared to Kingman's posting of Bob Morris's posting of the ATSF Alco PA in b&w, you can see the similarities between the two. While in Kingman's posting of the F-Unit, you can see the Barrel-Type control stand--used on all F-Units through the F-9 except for late-model FL-9s, also, that barrel-type control stand used on E-Units including the E-7s. Thus the reason for my post, wondering why EMD rather "copied" the Alco PA control stand on its E8/E9s while retaining the barrel stand in parallel production on the late-model F-7s and F-9s...

Nice photo of the NS 4270 as she appears today, BTW. Similar arrangement aboard the UP 951 & 949 after their rebuilds in late 1993 at VMV, entering service 1994 & as they appear inside to this day. The Bert Levin PRR E8s that were restored at the Altoona Shops were rebuilt with their original control stands as shown in the top photo of RI 652.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/14 17:46 by Red.

kingman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SP Alco stand from another great Robert Morris
> Picture.
> spnudge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
The photo sure looks like a Santa Fe engine in Richmond with the roundhouse hoist and backshop in the distance. The Illinois Div'n cab signals are between the two windshields.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/14 12:56 by WP-M2051.

WP-M2051 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kingman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SP Alco stand from another great Robert Morris
> > Picture.
> > spnudge Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> The photo sure looks like a Santa Fe engine in
> Richmond with the roundhouse hoist and backshop in
> the distance. The Illinois Div'n cab signals are
> between the two windshields.

Looking at the Robert Morris photo as originally postedon this site, it is indeed ATSF Alco PA No. 67, not an SP PA. PhotoBob has QUITE the collection! As well as you others! :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/14 17:48 by Red.

We need to jog Nudges' memory a little, because all of the SP's early GP9s that had type 24 brake equipment and a barrel type control stand, about the first 150 or so, were rebuilt in the Sacramento GRIP program, with their original barrel style of control stand.
So did all of the SD9 rebuilds, originally SP 3800-3966, afterward, 4300-4451, about 140 units, and all 43 SD7s, which went from 1400 to 1442 into the 1500-1542. The only change to the control stand on the SD7s was the new style of loadmeter, and the addition of a hump control rheostat.

ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We need to jog Nudges' memory a little, because
> all of the SP's early GP9s that had type 24 brake
> equipment and a barrel type control stand, about
> the first 150 or so, were rebuilt in the
> Sacramento GRIP program, with their original
> barrel style of control stand.
> So did all of the SD9 rebuilds, originally SP
> 3800-3966, afterward, 4300-4451, about 140 units,
> and all 43 SD7s, which went from 1400 to 1442 into
> the 1500-1542. The only change to the control
> stand on the SD7s was the new style of loadmeter,
> and the addition of a hump control rheostat.

Do you recall how many and/or which numbers of the SP GP9s had the so-called "Cash Register" control stand? Very similar to that found on the SP/SSW GP20s (actually almost IDENTICAL control stands), which were the precursors to the EMD GP30/35s, and ultimately in a more refined form to the GP40/SD40/SD45 2nd Generation control stands?

Also, while we're at it (but a bit off topic), recall that the SP U33Cs had at least THREE different control stands? Well, at least the U33Cs: (1) the original equipment GE control stand (but more advanced than say, the U25B's rather ancient-looking almost ALCO lookalike stands), the ones with the kind of slender throttle with black plastic tip with the throttle notches actually PAINTED onto the side of the greyish metal control stand, (2) the ones that came by special order from GE with an identical control stand pretty much to that found in SD40/SD45s, and, (3) the late/last order of U33Cs that came with the AAR "Clean Cab" dual handle control stands with that came iater in the B30-7s and in fact come to this day on GE ES44AC GEVOS...(none of the U30Cs came with Option 3, and I'm not sure any even came with Option 2). But a heck of a lot of variety with those big ole SP GE U33Cs! This may bring back some memories to you, and may give "Nudge a nudge," LOL!!! (This really belonged in a thread by itself, but I thought "What the heck?). Nobody obviously knows why EMD was concurrently builidng two concurent control stands in F and E-Units throughout the 1959s at an rate...

Those three guys are kind of close to the track. Maybe the "SPOTTER CONTROL" (as stenciled) has not been activated?

Ha ha! I hear ya!


filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those three guys are kind of close to the track.
> Maybe the "SPOTTER CONTROL" (as stenciled) has not
> been activated?