Nostalgia & History > How About a GG1?

A lucky hogger backing Penn Central GG1 4903 on to Amtrak's late National Limited at Harrisburg, PA on June 11, 1972. I wonder if he thought the G was just an old piece of junk?

Look at all the compound curves in her body.  Now she was a real piece of work.

Is she the one at the Museum of the American Railroad?  There was a number change and I'm not sure.

Enjoy,
Marty Bernard



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/15 21:08 by MartyBernard.

---

Looks as if the car he's coupling to is a Union Pacific 10 - 6  Pacific Sleeper.

Malcolm
New Zealand

them things tracked like velcro with the multi axle articulated chassis ... no sway or truck hunting ... i was fortunate to run one from PHL-BAL ...

Marty,

Yes, this is the GG1 at the Museum of the American RR.  Built in May (or June) 1940 as PRR #4903 (serial #4372), to PC same #, to Amtrak #906 (1st), to #4906, retired in April 1981, subsequently acquired by Age of Steam/Museum of the American RR.

Malcolm is correct.  That is one of the Budd-built UP Pacific-series 10RM-6DB sleepers.  Marty, do you have any shots of the consist you can post?  For passenger car researchers such as myself, Amtrak's Rainbow Era is always fascinating, because you never know what you'll see next.

Posting from Estes Park, CO

Sorry Ted, no consist phbotos.   Marty

But did you ever see this blog.
http://railfan44.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-silver-star-pictured-december-27.html


Marty

Always great photos and memories from you Marty.  Thank you so much for taking the time to share your collection with all of us.

I ran them between Phila. and Harrisburg.  And yes, I  liked them and they performed well.

Nostalgic photo, that one!  I wonder if ANYONE out there has a photo or two of GG1 # 4821  .....?  That unit was seen pulling the RBBB train into Greenwich Yard, Philadelphia, in the 1952 movie "The Greatest Show On Earth" (Paramount Pictures; starring Charlton Heston and James Stewart).

Wasn't one of the design criteria the ability to hunt well?  Pennsylvania Railroad initially used the boxcab R5 and R5a model for high speed passenger ops but ran into cracking and hunting issues. The long, rigid truck on the R5 was fingered as the issue.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't one of the design criteria the ability to
> hunt well?  Pennsylvania Railroad initially used
> the boxcab R5 and R5a model for high speed
> passenger ops but ran into cracking and hunting
> issues. The long, rigid truck on the R5 was
> fingered as the issue.

You must mean the P5a electric (4-6-4), which eventually couldn't maintain passenger schedules as the trains grew longer/heavier.  PRR the tried one R1 (the only 4-8-4 the PRR ever had, but that design was not all that successful either. Thus came the GG1, 4-6-6-4, and we all know how VERY successful that was. The few GG1s I ever road, sure didn't seem to hunt, even approaching 100MPH.

Out_Of_Service Wrote: >... I was fortunate to run one from PHL-BAL ...

Ouch! I'm jealous!! I think it would have been a great to run one of those. My apologies my water-boling elders, but I'd take the opportunity of running a G before I would take a mere cab ride in a large steamer. (I'll probably get slam-dunked for this heresy... ;^)

Lance

Sounds reasonable to me  Lance.

Marty

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wasn't one of the design criteria the ability
> to
> > hunt well?  Pennsylvania Railroad initially
> used
> > the boxcab R5 and R5a model for high speed
> > passenger ops but ran into cracking and hunting
> > issues. The long, rigid truck on the R5 was
> > fingered as the issue.
>
> You must mean the P5a electric (4-6-4), which
> eventually couldn't maintain passenger schedules
> as the trains grew longer/heavier.  PRR the tried
> one R1 (the only 4-8-4 the PRR ever had, but that
> design was not all that successful either. Thus
> came the GG1, 4-6-6-4, and we all know how VERY
> successful that was. The few GG1s I ever road,
> sure didn't seem to hunt, even approaching 100MPH.

I did mean P5 and P5a. Thanks for the correction

In electric locomotive terms:
A P5/P5a is a 2+C+2
The R-1 is a 2+D+2
A GG1 is a 2+C+C+2
or something along these lines.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/15 20:27 by EtoinShrdlu.

It's a shame a GG1couldn't be made to run today. Lots of Retired Electric locomotives to scavenge for parts for a internal conversion.

Posted from Android

Where would you run it?

Marty Bernard

>Where would you run it?

IRM, using solid state DC/AC  conversion apparatus, which means you could use the original AC electrical gear: traction motors, air compressor, blower motors, etc. Sure, it's fudging a little, but it would be an operating AC electric.

You could do the same at Orange Empire, but that would be no fun.  Do you think they would have rebuilt 611 if it could only run at The North Carolina Transportation Museum?   Why rebuild a GG! if you can't run it at at least 70 mph?  So my question stands. Where would it run? 

The choices are limited to Amtrak and a few commuter rail lines -- all public agencies.

Marty Bernard

 

MartyBernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry Ted, no consist phbotos.   Marty

MartyBernard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But did you ever see this blog.
> http://railfan44.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-silver-s
> tar-pictured-december-27.html
>
>
> Marty

No, I hadn't.  An interesting consist for sure, as it includes:

RF&P 52 seat chair #855, built by Budd in 1947 in Lot #9613-011, 1 of 8 such cars (#850-#857) built in that Lot for the SAL pool.  These 8 cars were part of a larger order for 20 chairs placed in April 1945.  This order also included 10 PRR-owned cars (#4058-#4067) built in Lot #9613-010 and 12 SAL-owned cars (#6215-#6226) built in Lot #9613-009.  All 20 of these chairs were delivered between January and April 1947.  Besides RF&P #852, which was wrecked in 1970, Amtrak acquired the remaining 19 cars, all of which were to receive #52xx-series numbers; the SAL and RF&P cars were acquired in 1971, the PRR cars in 1974.  The 7 remaining RF&P cars were renumbered to #5215-#5221, the #855 as #5219.  In 1974-1975, Amtrak increased the seating capacity of all 19 cars: 16 cars were increased to 60 seats, 2 cars to 68 seats, and 1 car to 78 seats.  (The cars increased to either 68 or 78 seats were from the PRR, and these cars had never had their planned #52xx-series numbers applied.)  Anyways, the #5219 was converted to the #6030 in 1974, and was stored in April 1983.  I don't have any further disposition info on this car, or for several of these 1947 SAL pool chairs.  The location of the #855 in front of the sleepers would indicate that this car is dead-heading.

SCL 10RM-6DB sleeper #6627 West Palm Beach, built as SAL #42 by Budd in 1949 in Lot #9662-026 to Plan #9503, 1 of 6 such cars (#38-#43) built in that Lot.  In conjunction, PRR also ordered 6 Plan #9503 sleepers, built in Lot #9662-025.  All 12 cars were ordered in March 1946 and delivered between June and August 1949.  Amtrak acquired the 6 ex-SAL cars in 1971 as #2700-#2705 and 4 of the PRR cars in 1973 as #2706-#2708 and #2239 (the #2239 was the Elberton, rebuilt to 11 double bedrooms, and subject of a recent thread).  Specifically, the West Palm Beach was acquired as the #2704.  Besides the Elberton and the #2702 St. Petersburg (ex-SCL #6623, nee-SAL #38) which was wrecked at Hamlet, NC, in December 1980, the other 8 cars were selected in 1981 for conversion to head end power (HEP) as #2474-#2481.  HEP sleepers in the #24xx-series had one roomette and the adjacent porter's room converted to an accessible room.  Of these 8 cars, only 3 were actually converted to HEP: Lake Wales, Miami, and Sarasota to #2474-#2476 respectively.  The other 5 cars remained in storage until retirement and sale in 1991-1992.  Specifically, the West Palm Beach was sold in 1992 to the Arizona Railway Museum, which renamed it as the Adiel Morris.  As seen in photos on the museum's website, this car has an #800xxx-series number, but I don't know which number it is.  At this time, I don't know the dispositions for the Winter Haven, Sarasota, Elberton, Lake Wales, or Athens.

SCL 10RM-6DB sleeper #6635 Cumberland County, built by P-S in 1949 in Lot #6809 to Plan #4140B, 1 of 42 such cars built in that Lot.  4 were owned by RF&P, 7 by FEC, 6 by PRR, and 25 by ACL.  The PRR cars were built to Plan #4140, the RF&P cars were ordered in March 1946, and the other 38 cars were ordered in June 1946.  All 42 cars were delivered between September and October 1949.  Between 1971 and 1974, Amtrak acquired 1 of the PRR cars and 20 of the ACL cars as #2776-#2796, the Cumberland County as #2780.  Of the cars not acquired, 2 RF&P cars went to NdeM and 2 to the Auto Train Corporation, the FEC cars had been sold in 1967 to CN (one of these, the Caparra, later CN/VIA #2136 Riviere Cloche, is now Iowa Pacific's SLRG #9500/#800580 Chebanse), 4 of the PRR cars were scrapped in 1971 and 1 was sold in 1971 to Jones Properties, and 5 ACL cars had been wrecked: Polk County in 1970, and Chatham County, Glynn County, Osceola County, and Ware County in 1971.  In 1950, ACL acquired 4 additional 10-6 sleepers from the C&O, which were among 56 such cars built by P-S in Lot #6864 to Plan #4167 (bedrooms located at the center of the car), part of C&O's large order of cars placed to P-S in November 1946; these cars were delivered between February and July 1950.  Amtrak also acquired these 4 cars in 1973 as #2800-#2803.  The #2780 Cumberland County was retired in 1979 and sold in 1981 to the Anbel Corporation in Brownsville, TX, but I don't know if this car ever entered service in Mexico, or what name/number it carried as such.  Of the Lot #6809 cars sold to Amtrak, after retirement I don't know which parties acquired the #6651/#2784 Seminole County (sold in 1984) or the #6647/#2794 Pinellas County (sold in 1983).

SCL 54 seat chair #5415, originally ACL #226, built by Budd in 1946 in Lot #9613-008, 1 of 22 such cars built in that Lot.  4 were owned by the ACL (#224-#227), 6 by RF&P (#801-#806), and 12 by PRR (#4046-#4057, same numbers under PC).  This Lot was ordered in June 1941 and delivered between May and June 1946.  These 22 chairs were delivered at the same time as 8 cars that had been ordered by ACL in May 1941: 5 54 seat chairs (#216-#220) and 3 46 seat chairs with hostess' room (#221-#223).  These 8 cars were originally to be built by Budd in Lots #96815 and #96815A respectively, but when Budd adopted the new Lot numbering system, the Lots for these cars were changed to #9613-003 and #9617-003 respectively.  These 3 Lots were among several ordered by various railroads prior to America's entry into WWII, but not delivered until after the conclusion of conflict due to wartime restrictions.  Besides these 3 Lots, other delayed Lots were ordered by AT&SF, ACL, and FEC.  Anyways, ACL #216-#220 and #224-#227 were renumbered to SCL #5408-#5416, and were acquired by Amtrak in 1971, with the same numbers.  The RF&P cars were acquired in 1971 as #5420-#5425, and 11 of the PRR cars were acquired in 1973 as #5426-#5436, excluding #4054, which was retired in 1971 and listed by Randall as "sold to a party in Fort Monmouth, NJ".  ACL #221-#223 were renumbered to SCL #5110-#5112, and were also acquired by Amtrak in 1971, as #4600-#4602.  Of the 29 cars acquired by Amtrak, 11 (#5413, #5415, #5416, #5420/#6077, #5422, #5423, #5425, #5428, #5433, #5434, and #4601/#6001) were sold c. 1993 to VIA, which converted 8 to HEP as 62 seat coaches #8130, #8131, #8135, #8140, #8142, #8143, #8145, and #8146 (but not in the same order); the #5415 was converted to #8135.  Of the 3 cars that VIA did not convert, 2 former RF&P cars (#803/#5422 and #804/#5423) were stored in Montreal until sold c. 2002 to unknown parties, and a former PRR car (#4048/#5428) I have in my notes as located in Pueblo, CO.  Interesting that the #5415 is located in front of the diner, rather than behind with the rest of the chairs.

SCL 48 seat diner #5912 was originally SAL #6107, built by Budd in 1947 in Lot #9624-009, 1 of 9 such cars (#6106-#6114) built in that Lot, which was ordered in April 1945; cars were delivered in June 1947.  These cars were renumbered to #5911-#5919, and were acquired by Amtrak in 1971 as #8011-#8019, the #5912 as #8012.  The #8012 was retired in May 1983 and subsequently sold to the Memphis Transportation Museum, which named the car Parks Acres.  The #8012 is now on display in Winona, MS.  Of these 9 cars, #8011 was sold to the St. Louis Car Co./Rail Cruise of America and is now owned by the Eastern Shore RY Museum in Parksley, VA; the #8013 was sold to private ownership as the #800215 New River Gorge, then acquired by AOE for planned use before being scrapped; the #8015 was sold to American Zephyr as the #800010 Silver Meteor and is now owned by the Great Smoky Mountains RR; the #8016 was sold to Denver Railcar; the #8017 was sold to the Gold Coast RR Museum; the #8018 was sold to the Boca Raton Historical Society; and the #8019 was sold to Steam Associates, then acquired by Denver Railcar as the #800747/DRCX #6114 Silver Lady, sold at the 2004 auction to Florida Rail Adventures (EOLX), and was sold in 2011 with the other EOLX cars to Iowa Pacific and assigned to the Saratoga & North Creek.  I don't know the current status of the #8016, or which party acquired the #8014.

SP 44 seat leg rest chair #2363, built by Budd in 1954 in Lot #9613-140, 1 of 15 such cars (#2362-#2376 [2nd]) built in that Lot, which was ordered in February 1953; cars were delivered between March and April 1954.  #2362 and #2363 were painted in Armour Yellow for the Overland Pool, while #2364 (2nd)-#2376 (2nd) were built for the Sunset Limited.  These cars were acquired by Amtrak in 1971 as #4425-#4439; the #2363 as #4426.  Amtrak also acquired the 15 44 seat leg rest chairs built by Budd in 1950 in Lot #9613-040: #2377-#2378 (Golden State cars) and #2225-#2237 (ex-T&NO #437-#449, nee-SP #2364 [1st]-#2376 [1st], Sunset Limited cars) as #4410-#4424.  This Lot had been ordered in June 1948; cars were delivered between March and May 1950.  One car from the 1954 Lot, #2375/#4438 was sold in 1976 to Brian B. Garrett's Whistle Stop Ranch in Flint, TX.  Of the remaining 29 cars, Amtrak selected 26 for conversion to HEP in 1980-1981, but only 23 of these were completed, as #4000-#4020 and #4648-#4649; the #4426 was converted to #4015 in March 1981.  The #40xx-series cars were accessible, with 40 seats.  In 1996-1997, 9 of the HEP-converted cars were selected for rebuild to #17xx-series baggage-express cars #1709, #1721-#1727 and #1740; the #4015 was rebuilt to #1726 in November 1996.  In 2000-2001, 2 additional cars were selected for rebuild to #1750-series postal storage cars #1762 and #1763.  The #1726 was stored in 2003; several of the #17xx-series cars had center sill issues spring up after rebuild, the #1726 could be one of these cars.  The 3 cars which had selected for conversion to #4021-#4023 and the 3 other unconverted cars were stored until sold c. 1993 to VIA, initially as #144-#148 and #189; 5 of these 6 were converted to HEP as 68 seat coaches #4105-#4109.  #4414/#4023 to #145/#4106, #4417 to #146/#4107, #4419 to #147/#4108 #4425 to #148, #4430/#4021 to #189/#4109, and #4412/#4022 to #144/#4105.

UP 44 seat leg rest chair #5475 was built by AC&F in 1954 in Lot #4095, 1 of 30 such cars (#5458-#5487) built in that Lot, which was ordered in November 1952; cars were delivered between June and September 1954.  Of these 30 cars, 4 were sold in 1969 to GTW and converted to 74 seat commuter coaches #4803-#4806, 8 were sold in 1969 to GN as #1000-#1007, 4 were sold in 1971 to Ringling Brothers, and 4 were sold in 1971 to the Panama RR via Bill Kratville's Autoliner Corporation.  Of the 8 cars sold to GN, #1006 (ex-#5485) was stored in 1971 (no further info), 6 were sold to New Jersey DOT/CNJ in 1973 and converted to 108 seat commuter coaches, and the #1003 (ex-#5476) was sold to Amtrak in 1974 as #4549.  This was 1 of only 2 cars from this Lot which were acquired by Amtrak, the other was acquired directly from UP in 1971: #5479 to #4553.  10 cars, including #5475, were retained by UP and initially leased to Amtrak.  When UP decided to convert their fleet of retained passenger cars to HEP in the late 1980's, only 5 of these 10 cars were selected, and the other 5 were among 8 cars sold to NdeM in 1987, including the #5475, which became NdeM #4209.

The last 2 chairs on this train are PRR Class P85L 64 seat chair-12 seat smokers converted in 1963 from Class PS21B 21 roomette sleepers built by Budd in 1949 in Lot #9667-024 to Plan #9513.  This Lot was ordered in January 1946; cars were delivered between January and June 1949.  These 50 sleepers were #8241-#8290 with Inn-series names, and were converted in 1963 to #1500-#1549.  The last 2 cars had a 6 seat snack bar-lounge instead of a 12 seat smoker section.  #1533 was formerly the #8255 Coshocton Inn, and the #1510 was formerly the #8281 Salem Inn.  In 1976, most of these 50 cars were transferred to the New Jersey DOT, and were renumbered to the NJT #54xx-series in 1980, the #1533 as #5424 and the #1510 as #5425.  In 1989, MARC acquired 15 of these cars from NJT, and 12 were converted in 1991 to HEP as #160-#169 and café lounges #132-#133, with the original Inn-series names applied.  The #5424 was converted to #164 and the #5425 was converted to #165.  In 2000, MARC sold several cars to the Akron Metro Regional Transit Authority, which are leased to the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, including these 2 cars.  Like most cars in the CVSR fleet, these cars carry names: the #164 is named Jesse Angel Hall and the #165 is named Key Bank.

Posting from Estes Park, CO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/15 00:51 by Rainier_Rails.