Canadian Railroads > CN vs. CP grades

OK, here is a simple question I've always had: was the CN engineered with consistently lower gradients than the CP, and if so, why didn't the CP do the same?

Was it government vs. private funding issues?

It sure looks like CP has tougher grades vs. CN, but I'm from the U.S., and not so sure.

CN's steepest mainline grades are between Quebec City and Moncton, NB. CN in Alberta/B.C. was engineered for gentle grades.

The builders of the CPR on the other hand were under political pressure to have a completed railway in a short time. They built west of Calgary before surveys were fully complete. Expediency trumped route selection.

KG

I believe CP had considered Yellowhead Pass, due to easier grades. But there was great pressure to build closer to the border, to prevent incursions from US, both political ["54-40 or fight"] and railroad {James J. Hill].

JGFuller Wrote:
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> I believe CP had considered Yellowhead Pass, due
> to easier grades. But there was great pressure to
> build closer to the border, to prevent incursions
> from US, both political ["54-40 or fight"] and
> railroad {James J. Hill].

Actually, the Northern Pacific was a strong contender at the time the CPR was building to the west and built a network of branch lines in southern Manitoba which the Canadian Northern acquired when the NP got into financial troubles in the 1890's.

The Great Northern also had the "picket fence" branches north from their main line in North Dakota and Montana, some of which extended into Canada. In the late 1800's, the reality was that whichever country filled up the empty lands in the west with its citizens would eventually get to claim it as theirs.

CP had a stoke of luck building their original line through northern Ontario when huge deposits of nickle were found around Sudbury.
In those days before sophisticated mineral exploration, it was entirely possible that there were valuable mineral deposits on the Kicking Horse/Rogers Pass route that CP chose for their main line. There was some, however the building of the CPR bought greater access to south eastern and south central BC , where huge deposits of copper, silver, and coal were discovered. Initially, this area was accessed by river boats and later rail lines were built both by the CPR and the Great Northern.

CP briefly had a 4% grade on the Field Hill west of Lake Louise until the Spiral tunnels were built after 1900, and still has some active 4% track around Trail BC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/13 19:22 by eminence_grise.

kgmontreal Wrote:
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> CN's steepest mainline grades are between Quebec
> City and Moncton, NB. CN in Alberta/B.C. was
> engineered for gentle grades.
>

So what is the grade St. Andre Jct. - Pelletier? Maybe 1.2%?
And Estcourt to Pelletier is? Maybe 1.3%?
And Longley to Summit is? Maybe 1.2%?

I used to know these things but it has been a very long time.

But then there are the grades in the USA:

What is the grade going south out of Pokegama Yard in Superior? I heard they were pushing some trains when I visited in 2006. Was that the only helper district on CN in modern times?

And the grade up Byron Hill is?

And Galena to Scales Mound is?

Thanks in advance,

Rob L.

The toughest grade on CN is the northbound grade out of Pokegama up Steelton Hill, the former Missabe at 2.2 percent.

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SOO6617 Wrote:
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> The toughest grade on CN is the northbound grade
> out of Pokegama up Steelton Hill, the former
> Missabe at 2.2 percent.


Maybe south of the 49th.................

The climb out of the Peace River Valley, at Peace River, is 2.5 to 2.8% in places, and the Alberta Coal Branch south (west) of Edson has stretches of 3% gradient.............

Locotrol2

SOO6617 Wrote:
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> The toughest grade on CN is the northbound grade
> out of Pokegama up Steelton Hill, the former
> Missabe at 2.2 percent.
>

But nowadays, this is the downhill, southbound route, yes?

What is the grade on the line northhbound trains normally use?

Best regards,

Rob L.

rob_l Wrote:
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> SOO6617 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The toughest grade on CN is the northbound
> grade
> > out of Pokegama up Steelton Hill, the former
> > Missabe at 2.2 percent.
> >
>
> But nowadays, this is the downhill, southbound
> route, yes?
>
> What is the grade on the line northhbound trains
> normally use?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob L.

This is not regularly used by Iron Ore trains, that is nearby Proctor Hill which leads to the docks and has the same gradient. Rob, there is no alternate lower grade track. This is almost certainly the busiest CN trackage with grades greater than 2%.

Now part of CN, there is a 2.2 percent grade going north out of Lillooet for approximatley 31 miles.

611

Train611 Wrote:
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> Now part of CN, there is a 2.2 percent grade going
> north out of Lillooet for approximatley 31 miles.
>
> 611

Does that line see more than 10 trains per day?

The ironic part of the locating of the CPR is that chief engineer Sanford Flemming preffered the Yellowhead route. Politics dictated that the line be built to the south to try to prevent U.S. lines from ''raiding'' Canadian territory. This location was effective in achieving this goal across the praries, but rich mineral strikes in the Kootenay & Boundary districts of B.C. forced the CPR to undertake the building of the Crowsnest line through southern B.C. to capture traffic that was being funneled stateside by lines built by J.J. Hill & Dan Corbin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/13 00:29 by DPKrause.

SOO6617 Wrote:
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> Train611 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now part of CN, there is a 2.2 percent grade
> going
> > north out of Lillooet for approximatley 31
> miles.
> >
> > 611
>
> Does that line see more than 10 trains per day?

No, perhaps one freight train per day now, plus the RMR. BC Rail operated three regular freight trains in each direction, plus a switcher and passenger train. Train611 is talking about the infamous Kelly Lake Hill. Doug

As an American, I'd hesitate to jump into this debate. But I read "The National Dream" many years ago about the construction of the CP (and the poiticking that preceded it), and I've also read quite a bit about CN and its predecessors.

So let me correct a few misconceptions.

First, the Canadian Pacific Survey was run during the 1870d by the Canadian government, which had promised British Columbia a railway as a bribe to join the Confederation. CPS had nothing whatever to do with CP Railway, which didn't exist at the time. The idea was to make the survey available to private entrepreneurs who would then construct the railway.

For the reasons discussed above, the backers of CP Railway (which initially included James J. Hill, who was a Canadian by birth) decided to ignore the CPS and run their own line further south. The route over the Selkirks was laid out by A.B. Rogers, who was an American. There were various reasons for taking a more southerly route, including the fear of competition from US railways, but Hill finally left the CPR consortium in a dispute over the route east, not west, of Winnipeg. He wanted the route to use his Minneapolis and Manitoba Railway from Winnipeg to the Twin Cities and then run east to Sault Ste. Marie. The Canadian government and the other CP consortium members were determined to see an all-Canadian route, despite the fact that there was no traffic to be had in the Canadian Shield.

The route through the Yellowhead was finally completed by Canadian Northern, a private company that started as a regional railroad in Manitoba and western Ontario. But in the meantime, the Canadian government unwisely decided to build a government-owned transcontinental railway called the National Transcontinental. The eastern end, from Quebec to Winnipeg, was built by the government. The western end, known as the Grand Trunk Pacific, was built after a lot of arm-twisting by the private Grand Trunk Railroad, which the government tried to make into a CP and CNoR competitor.

For a few years after 1914, there were actually two railroads through the Yellowhead Pass, one to Vancouver and the other to Prince Rupert. After the end of WW I, the whole mess collapsed into bankruptcy and became "Canadian Government Railways", soon changed to Canadian National Railways. At times during the Great Depression, the railway deficit consumed a third of the federal budget.

For many years the Canadian government paid a "bridge subsidy" to both CP and CN to encourage them to route traffic north of Lake Superior, but that subsidy is now gone and, as most of you know, much east/west traffic now moves through Chicago on CN at least. CP still routes a lot north of the lake, but has also been making more use of a US routing in recent years. So Jim Hill was right after all.

I wonder if CP ever considered building their initial mainline along a routing via Crowsnest Pass and today's Windermere Subdivision to Golden, as opposed to Kicking Horse Pass? It would have been an easier crossing of the mountains. I suppose that, if that routing were chosen, the city we now know as Calgary would have been well south of where it is today.

Are the 3percent grades on the coal line against loads?

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jc76 Wrote:
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> Are the 3percent grades on the coal line against
> loads?
>
> Posted from Android


No