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Canadian Railroads > Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean


Date: 05/02/19 05:16
Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: DrawingroomA

Regarding the Renaissance/Budd mixed consist which starts in June on the Ocean, I noticed yesterday that VIA has now clarified the types of accommodation showing on Reservia. All Renaissance cabins are now indicated clearly. With the mixed consist it was difficult to determine whether a cabin for 2 was Budd or Ren., although the cabin for 2 with shower was obvious.
 
For two passengers in a cabin for 2, the fare is the same whether it is in the Budd sleeper or the Renaissance, with or without shower. For single occupancy there is a big difference. VIA offers the Ren. cabins for single use at a mere 15% surcharge as opposed to 50% in the Budd cabins. As an example, Halifax-Montreal for one person in a Ren. cabin for 2 costs $498 (plus tax) and $650 in a Budd cabin.
 
If taking a free trip on VIA Preference points, the difference in points is huge. For single use of a cabin for 2 in Budd sleepers, VIA charges an extra 75% in points. There is no surcharge in points on the Ren. equipment for the reason that cabins for 1 are not available and a member of Preference is entitled to a private room.  Now that VIA is running one mixed consist I wonder if that generosity will extend to that train. I doubt it because cabins for 1 are available.
 
My wife and I have two Renaissance cabins booked for a Sept. trip. Reservia is still showing this as a Ren. consist, but if I follow the rotation of the mixed consist – presently showing until early August - it will probably be that one. I paid for my cabin and booked my wife’s cabin on points. I’m glad we booked early.
 



Date: 05/02/19 05:21
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: joemvcnj

Is this because of wrecked REN cars ?
How many Budd sleepers ?
Are they Chateau cars  ?
Which western train sacrifices ? 



Date: 05/02/19 11:46
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: DrawingroomA

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this because of wrecked REN cars ?
> How many Budd sleepers ?
> Are they Chateau cars  ?
> Which western train sacrifices ? 

I am speculating, but I think it is reasonable to assume that VIA is not repairing the sleepers that were damaged near Truro in the recent incident casued by CN leaving "debris" between the rails. VIA has indicated they plan on removing the Renaissance equipment next year.  With only two consists needed as opposed to three before the 2012 reduction of frequency, there should be a lot of spare sleepers. Perhaps there are problems with them and it isn't worth while to repair them. For the past several years there have been three Ren. sleepers outside the Toronto Maintenance Centre. I don't know if they are in good shape or why they are even there. They appeared a few years after the discontinuance of the Montreal-Toronto overnight train the Enterprise.

I don't know how many sleepers will be Budd and how many will be Ren. At least some Budd sleepers are Chateau. Reservia is showing "cabin for 3" as one choice of accommodation. Given that all Manor sleepers have been in use on the Canadian for the past many summers I doubt there will be any on the Ocean. 



Date: 05/02/19 14:10
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: joemvcnj

I wish they would put a HEP-I coach in the consist, I will not ride a REN coach overbnight. Been there, done that on the Enterprise. Those are day coaches. 



Date: 05/02/19 14:30
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: jp1822

I don’t get it though.

There were three Renaissance trainsets at one time, each trainset easily had - at one time during peak season - at LEAST 10 sleepers operating on the Ocean. There were spares left over, and sleepers held in reserve to add for periods of time if they needed to. The switching of cars in and out was not easy though. Even if one trainset is completely down, there should be two left to hold down service with ample sleepers available. There were 57 Renaissance Sleepers built. An additional three sleeper shells were built and outfitted to serve as a diner. 

What happened to the Renaissance sleepers? 

How could VIA go from operating 57 to operating less than 12 for ONE trainset only?

Subbing Chateau cars is going to limit expansion/growth and current ridership even, let alone take away from the Hudson Bay line and Canadian - even if it is only operating two days a week!

Yes, I understand that VIA wants to retire the Renaissance fleet, even though it really can’t afford to retire the sleeper in terms of revenue generation. And there’s no substitute available for the sleepers in terms of “extra” fleet cars. Does VIA want to try and lease some Amtrak sleepers or did they buy any of the Heritage crew cars to modify into revenue sleepers? VIA has done wonders with the interiors of the old Amtrak “Heritage Cars” that they purchased in the past and even the Chateau cars, made into $10K+ a trip sleeping compartments. 

Who can do an accounting of the 57 Renaissance Sleepers that were originally deployed when the Enterprise and Ocean were operating in the early 2000’s?



Date: 05/02/19 16:24
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: 4489

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wish they would put a HEP-I coach in the
> consist, I will not ride a REN coach overbnight.
> Been there, done that on the Enterprise. Those are
> day coaches. 

I will alert VIA to your proclamation!



Date: 05/02/19 19:47
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: jp1822

Anyone on the 57 Renaissance sleepers? This seems crazy that nearly all are being sidelined at this time.......Is it for sure that Budd’s will continue to sub for Renaissance sleepers? Part of the problem in 2020 is that VIA loses the loop track in Halifax.....Can train 3 and 4 operate with Renaissance sleepers so as to try and preserve sleeper car availability?



Date: 05/02/19 19:56
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: DrawingroomA

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Who can do an accounting of the 57 Renaissance
> Sleepers that were originally deployed when the
> Enterprise and Ocean were operating in the early
> 2000’s?

According to the Canadian Trackside Guide, only 27 sleepers were completed. There were 72 sleepers and shells shipped to Canada. Three sleeper shells were  converted to dining cars and 12 were made into baggage cars. Later, three of the baggage cars were adapted as transition cars. The remaining shells were stored in Thunder Bay.

In early October of last year the two consists of the Ocean had nine sleepers each. For the last approximately  three years of the Enterprise there were two or three on each of the two consists.



Date: 05/03/19 03:01
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: joemvcnj

What was the REN sleeper allocation when there were 3 Ocean and 2 Enterprise train sets ?

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/19 06:06 by joemvcnj.



Date: 05/03/19 04:00
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: jp1822

I got it - but VIA says they have 57 Renaissance sleeper “active” on their website. However, I tend to agree that the number is more like 27 as you say. There should still be a surplus, but something, or some sort of decision, was made regarding them!!!


DrawingroomA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jp1822 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Who can do an accounting of the 57 Renaissance
> > Sleepers that were originally deployed when the
> > Enterprise and Ocean were operating in the
> early
> > 2000’s?
>
> According to the Canadian Trackside Guide, only 27
> sleepers were completed. There were 72 sleepers
> and shells shipped to Canada. Three sleeper shells
> were  converted to dining cars and 12 were made
> into baggage cars. Later, three of the baggage
> cars were adapted as transition cars. The
> remaining shells were stored in Thunder Bay.
>
> In early October of last year the two consists of
> the Ocean had nine sleepers each. For the last
> approximately  three years of the Enterprise
> there were two or three on each of the two
> consists.



Date: 05/03/19 05:07
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: DrawingroomA

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What was the REN sleeper allocation when there
> were 4 Ocean and 2 Enterprise train sets ?
>
The Enterprise was converted from Budd equipment (which included a Park car) to Renaissance in 2002. It had three sleepers on each consist. Towards the end of the Enterprise operation that had been reduced to two.  I was on the last w/b run in October 2005. The equipment was soon sent deadhead back to Montreal.

As for the Ocean I hope others can give more precise information. The Renaissance equipment was phased in over a couple of years. The number of sleepers varied and still varies considerably according to demand. From my travels and observations I have seen as few as four in the winter and in the peak season from six to eight. As I previously mentioned there were nine on my train last October. When the Enterprise was running with three sleepers, it would not have been possible for the Ocean to have more than seven sleepers if all three consists were Renaissance. That would leave not a single spare, so there may have been fewer. Since October 2012 when the Ocean was reduced to tri-weekly, there have been plenty of spare sleepers.



Date: 05/03/19 05:41
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: ghCBNS

Run the Ocean between Montreal and Moncton only, 3 days per week on alternate days (ie: e/b from Montreal on Fri night and w/b from Moncton on Sat night). Only one set of equipment is needed, and it can be turned on a wye in Moncton. The Ocean’s heaviest traffic is from Moncton and west.

Add the 'Intercity' train between Halifax and Moncton that VIA has been talking about for several years now and possibly run it though to Saint John. (no need to turn in Halifax) Run it daily providing better service than what the Ocean provides now. Passenger would change in Moncton to/fr the Ocean. (The Ocean was a Montreal to Moncton only train back in the ‘80s and Halifax passengers had to change……granted they could use the Atlantic if going through to Montreal via Maine)



Date: 05/03/19 06:00
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: DavidP

Is the issue with turning at Halifax that the loop is going away, or that VIA is just losing access to it?  If the latter, I suppose a negotiated solution is always possible...pay more, exert political pressure, etc.  Otherwise, is the wye at Truro still viable?  Could the haul the consist backwards for two hours in one direction and run the power around there?  Not ideal, but perhaps more passenger friendly than changing trains at Moncton.

Dave



Date: 05/03/19 06:11
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: joemvcnj

Why not add a Budd sleeper and a Budd coach to the Moncton Ocean, and send through to Halifax on the other train ? Seems they will have to deadhead the Halifax's cars back to Montreal on occasion too. 
What happens if the Chaleur train ever comes back ?  



Date: 05/03/19 08:26
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: ghCBNS

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What happens if the Chaleur train ever comes back
> ? 

No train yet again this summer but VIA is teaming up with 'Régie intermunicipale de transport Gaspésie – Îles-de-la-Madeleine' to offer a shuttle service between Gaspe and Campbelltron connecting with the Ocean.

https://www.viarail.ca/en/transportation-services/our-partners/regim 



Date: 05/06/19 14:13
Re: Mixed Budd/Renaissance consist on the Ocean
Author: andersonb109

What year were the Ren cars built? Regardless of their age, they came no where near close to the years of service of the Budds. 



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