European Railroad Discussion > French HS 12: Blond Nosed Eurostar Regionals

The Eurostar Capitals also has a smaller sister, called "Eurostar North of London" or "Eurostar Regional". These trains profile always seems to have been somewhat unclear. "North of London" would suggest these were intended to be used within U.K. However, if you look at the developments there at the time, other railroading concerns emerged needing more immediate attention than building high speed lines. Some Regional Eurostars served as a leased units for GNER between London and Leeds. But otherwise the trains ended up to secondary use.

7 Regional Eurostars exist. Each consists of two half sets, a power car with 7 interconnected trailers. This formation again is not the standard TGV length, but coincides (probably unintentionally) with that of the German ICE1. The Regional units first bogie closest to the locomotive of the trailer set is again powered. The sets were built at the same time in 1992-3 when the Eurostar Capitals rolled out the assembly lines. Half set 3308 has never been used for revenue service, but for "static testing" and the 3304 is said to be retired. In the picture below it looks like similarly colored locomotives and maybe trailers too for this service have been borrowed from one of the Capital units, along with the unit 3225 below. But generally Eurostar Regionals are this kind of blond nosed units.

As you can tell from the pictures, Eurostar has more units than it needs while SNCF high speed TGV service is train hungry with less available capacity than it would wish. This lead years ago to arrangement that the Eurostar Regional units were moved to France where they have served ever since national lines North of Paris. From the numbers on the units in the pictures it would appear even more capacity has been needed.

Note in the picture below the nose section has obviously had need to be rebuilt for several times, likely due to incidents with automobiles and other obstacles on track. The train also carries the TGV sign, misleading a casual observer to think it as a normal TGV unit. Here the TGV sign actually signifies the SNCF high speed service, also known as the TGV. The current SNCF logo as owner of the train set also overlaps the TGV logo here in a company name standard placement. A number of the Eurostar units are not directly owned by Eurostar as a subsidiary of SNCF, but SNCB (Belgian railways) or the SNCF itself. 30xx units are Eurostar owned, 31xx SNCB owned and 32xx owned by SNCF directly.

With small number of units and noncompatible parts and service the Regional Eurostars might be the first TGV like units removed from the regular daily service. Or the next to be refurbished for the next 15 years.

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Now that Eurostar services terminate at London St. Pancras you would think that there would be more synergy with the rest of the UK. Waterloo was quite hopeless in this respect. But the Midland Main Line north of St. Pancras is not electrified (yet). Regional services are most unlikely to happen because the lines that are electrified (ECML and WCML) are already at or near capacity.

I do think it strange that SNCF can operate TGVs over a quite extensive non-high speed network at conventional 100 mph track speeds, but this cannot apparently happen in the UK. Transferring from a UK regional train to Eurostar takes up to two hours depending on which London station you arrive at. This is partly due to the 30-45 minutes security check allowance, partly getting across London, partly an allowance for poor time keeping risk.

I know there are lots of problems with passport controls, tunnel security, etc., etc., so what could happen probably won't.

1. The "North of London" [ 'NoL' ] sets were built for through services from other British cities [ Manchester, etc ] through the Chunnel to Paris or Brussels. To a certain extent they, like the ill fated Nightstar stock, were ordered for political purposes without full consideration of practical matters such as HM Customs, physical rail connections through London at reasonably commercial speeds, etc.

2. Regarding your three photos in this post: When and where were they taken ?

3. I think some of the most interesting aspect of the Eurostar sets was the conversion of some sets -- I think it was a total of nine -- to operate from 1500 vdc so they could be used on trains to the winter sports areas in the south of France, either internally on SNCF from Paris, or through from London. I presume but don't know that this was at the expense of 3000 vdc capability. Will you be covering these in a future edition ? I believe the power cars with which you have illustrated this post [ 3204 and 3225 ] are among these converted units.

Best, SZ



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/13 04:37 by Steinzeit.

Thank you for the additional backgrounder on the trains! Looks like something that seems politically the right thing to does not always match the needs of reality. Sweden and Denmark have some similar examples.

Steinzeit Wrote:
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> 1. The "North of London" [ 'NoL' ] sets were
> built for through services from other British
> cities [ Manchester, etc ] through the Chunnel to
> Paris or Brussels. To a certain extent they, like
> the ill fated Nightstar stock, were ordered for
> political purposes without full consideration of
> practical matters such as HM Customs, physical
> rail connections through London at reasonably
> commercial speeds, etc.

These pictures were taken last summer at Paris Gare du Nord, one of the busiest stations in Europe. A little bit to the left can be found the Yellow nosed units, but this is the national service. I did not notice at the time that these were in fact not the "true" Regional units, so unfortunately those are still missing from all of us for comparison purposes. Maybe another time in Paris or Lille the Regional units show up.

> 2. Regarding your three photos in this post:
> When and where were they taken ?

I can look into the subject, problem being I'm not sure 15 or so of my TGV books (I'm a big fan of these trains if someone did not notice already ;) cover this subject. But the power of the forum is that maybe someone else of us does know.

This would be interesting conversion, since the 1500V capability + the traditional train control system (besides the TVM430) makes the units compatible basically with much of the French network. Say, these could be operated for example on the French riviera to other cities besides Paris services (we still have the congested LGV-PSE to deal with between Lyon and Paris).

Would you have any links or info on the 1500V conversion? Besides touching the Regionals, this info might give away which 6 Eurostar Capitals (half) units were removed from the international roster. And at least I am very surprised that these are not needed between London and Central European destinations, considering what kind of high speed + frequent service boom we are experiencing in France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Italy and Spain at least.

But, the next article will cover the TGV-Duplex or Thalys-PBKA, to be followed by some unusual TGV subjects and developments that I think will be interesting to many forum members here. Again, the power of this forum, we can return to discuss any subjects here any time :) , outside the articles themselves.

> 3. I think some of the most interesting aspect of
> the Eurostar sets was the conversion of some sets
> -- I think it was a total of nine -- to operate
> from 1500 vdc so they could be used on trains to
> the winter sports areas in the south of France,
> either internally on SNCF from Paris, or through
> from London. I presume but don't know that this
> was at the expense of 3000 vdc capability. Will
> you be covering these in a future edition ? I
> believe the power cars with which you have
> illustrated this post [ 3204 and 3225 ] are among
> these converted units.
>
> Best, SZ

I could add the observation that France is much less "Paris-centric" than the UK is "London-centric".

Proof of this is the LGV bypass around the east side of Paris, which I think continues across the southern side of Paris, to allow fast connections from Lille Europe to the rest of France without having to change through two Paris termini. The list of destinations from Lille Europe (and occasionally Lille Flandres) that avoid Paris include Rennes, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Perpignan, Marseilles, Monpellier and Nice. The two stations east of Paris help to make this line viable (Paris CDG airport and Disneyworld) but for all those regional cities there are fast train services with good connections.

Because a similar strategy doesn't exist in the UK it is sometimes easier to travel across country via London. A good example would be Oxford to Cambridge (the direct route was severed in the 1960s and only now is it being rebuilt at great cost). The Cross Country services through Birmingham have been a welcome improvement, though the trainsets used are not popular and are often overcrowded being only 4 or 5 cars long. There are plenty of reasons why the NoL concept couldn't take off in the early 1990s. Even today the idea of using Euston for HS2 and St. Pancras for HS1 shows a very poor lack of future planning. I know that St. Pancras is a much loved station but it will not be fit for purpose if an when HS2 is completed. Could St. Pancras become another Waterloo???

Focalplane Wrote:
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> I could add the observation that France is much
> less "Paris-centric" than the UK is
> "London-centric".
>

With respect to Brighton there isn't any city the size of Lille the other side (ie South) of London. What London does have is a much more built up outer communter belt - the Wokings, Tonbridges, Chelmsfords, Hertfords and Hemel Hempsteads of this world. It's also got a large river which would cost a lot of money to cross to the East of London.

Everything is of course do-able at a price, but whether a cross London service would have the weight of passengers in a single location to justify a by-pass line is a big issue.

There will be one if HS2 is built. Stratford (now apparently closed after three weeks of intensive use) would be an equivalent to Marne la Vallée Chessy.

I read the British newspapers on line and I find it difficult to believe that people outside of the southeast of England actually have a political franchise. And when I visit England this is often confirmed.

A recent report commissioned by Birmingham City Council suggested that Birmingham International Airport, if expanded (they are currently lengthening the runway) could be a better alternative than either expansion at Heathrow or a new airport in the Thames Estuary (which is even more London-centric, Boris Johnson!) The logic of this is undeniable whether or not HS2 is built.

Personally I like Birmingham Airport as it is (small, efficient, good transport connections by road and rail) but the truth is Birmingham's catchment area in central England is a heck of lot a better than additional runways at Heathrow or an airport constructed in a marsh where only birds live (and, as an announcement at Baroda Airport, India once reminded me "We are very sorry but the airplane ingested a bird and cannot fly").

Can you tell I am not a Londoner?!

If?

Focalplane Wrote:
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> There will be one if HS2 is built.

I am a Londoner, and I don't deny much of what you say. However if we move back from political geography to railway geography I'm still not sure that the railway geography would support a high speed by pass line.

McKey Wrote:
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> If?
>
> Focalplane Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There will be one if HS2 is built.

I have serious doubts that it will be be built. The "not in my back yard" lobby along the route is very powerful despite representing a very small population. As others have said, there is a lot of sense in improving the general network with the funds. Chiltern's improvements in raising speed and frequency of service between London and Birmingham cost a fraction of what HS2 is currently estimated to cost. This type of improvement could be initiated all over the country.

There is also the possibility (only that) that the UK could leave the EU. I understand that the EU directive on high speed railways is a factor in the decision to build HS2. With no diktats from Brussels I would expect HS2 to be scrapped, even if it was half built!

In an ideal world, where the revenue from North Sea Oil had been spent on improving infrastructure, all this could be so different.

Ok, thank you for the background info!

Normally EU pays part of the rail investments, so if the HS2 is part of the TEN-T program, are they planning on doing this and what is the percentage (if this can be found out) to be paid? Normally these are anywhere from 15% to 85% of total costs depending on the country and the project.

cricketer8for9 Wrote:
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> I am a Londoner, and I don't deny much of what you
> say. However if we move back from political
> geography to railway geography I'm still not sure
> that the railway geography would support a high
> speed by pass line.

I have attached a screen grab from the official plans for the link between HS2 and HS1, only to demonstrate the point that this link will be dedicated high speed (probably with a speed limit through switches, etc., like at Lille Europe) but will have no place to stop near Euston or St. Pancras. Stratford, built specially for the Olympics, apparently, is on HS1, to the east, while there will also be a similar suburban station at Old Oak Common, west of Paddington, on HS2.

All this is within the railway geography. At the present time some Eurostars stop at Ebbsfleet (north Kent) or Ashford (south Kent), so I could imagine the possibility that a train from Manchester might stop/change direction in Birmingham, continue down to either Old Oak Common or Stratford to pick up additional passengers, and then to the Continent.

The populations of Greater Manchester and the West Midland Conurbation are currently 2.68 and 5.60 million respectively. Greater London has 8.17 million though this doesn't include much of the commuter belt. I pulled these numbers from wikipedia. From a marketing point of view I think John McKey is making a strong case for future North of London services to Europe that could also serve the areas outside Greater London by utilizing the suburban high speed stations. All this would need HS2, of course.

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I do agree, so long as we treat North West Europe as one polycentric conurbation ranging from Manchester to Paris and Amsterdam. Nation states do tend to get in the way though, and, at least for the UK borders, get in the way as well as the cross channel security measures. We're not part of the Schengen area and it seems unlikely that we will be. The rightness of that decision really does take us into the political realm.

A Paris - London - Birmingham service that could take passengers from and to all of those three would be great in the same way that an Amstredam, Rotterdam, Brussels, Paris service is not compelled to only take passengers from one or other of the end destinations.

1. According to the 1998 edition of "Le Materiel Moteur de la SNCF" the following power cars [ 9 rakes of the 16 SNCF ones ] had 1500 vdc capability at that time:
3201/01, 03/04, 07/08, 09/10, 15/16, 23/24, 25/26, 27/28, and 29/30. [ All Eurostar units were KVB equipped from the factory.]

2. Focalplane Wrote:
> A recent report commissioned by Birmingham City
> Council suggested that Birmingham International
> Airport, if expanded (they are currently
> lengthening the runway) could be a better
> alternative than either expansion at Heathrow or a
> new airport in the Thames Estuary.......

It would be a surprise [ considering who's paying ] if it didn't ! But if the report said "could be" instead of "would be" the case for it must not be that strong ?

3. How do HM Customs, etc, handle the passengers to those intermediate stations in Kent ?

4. If a private operator had the expensive emu's that were Chunnel-rated, wouldn't it make the most sense to use them through the Chunnel as often as possible, thus limiting their 'penetration' beyond London, especially if they are already going farther afield such as Koln or Amsterdam ?

5. Does Stratford [ on HSR1 ] have good local connections to Canary Wharf, etc, eg, is it a viable destination for passengers from NoL other than transfer to Chunnel trains ?

Best, SZ

Thank you for this addition!

Steinzeit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. According to the 1998 edition of "Le Materiel
> Moteur de la SNCF" the following power cars [ 9
> rakes of the 16 SNCF ones ] had 1500 vdc
> capability at that time:
> 3201/01, 03/04, 07/08, 09/10, 15/16, 23/24,
> 25/26, 27/28, and 29/30. [ All Eurostar units
> were KVB equipped from the factory.]

The point that has been argued in the Train magazines, why there is only London service, or the Central European side is limited too. However, the inspections could actually happen on train, the way they happen between Finnish and Russia now. This takes three compartments from the train (one of which is NOT jail).

> 3. How do HM Customs, etc, handle the passengers
> to those intermediate stations in Kent ?

Valuable business point, & nonstandard arrangements only lead to lower quality service for customers.

> 4. If a private operator had the expensive emu's
> that were Chunnel-rated, wouldn't it make the most
> sense to use them through the Chunnel as often as
> possible, thus limiting their 'penetration' beyond
> London, especially if they are already going
> farther afield such as Koln or Amsterdam ?

Steinzeit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 2. Focalplane Wrote:
> > A recent report commissioned by Birmingham City
> > Council suggested that Birmingham International
> > Airport, if expanded (they are currently
> > lengthening the runway) could be a better
> > alternative than either expansion at Heathrow or
> a
> > new airport in the Thames Estuary.......
>
> It would be a surprise [ considering who's paying
> ] if it didn't ! But if the report said "could
> be" instead of "would be" the case for it must not
> be that strong ?

I think the report was consultative only, so could rather than would. I know a lot of people who choose Birmingham over Heathrow if they live in, for example, Oxford, half way between the two.
>
> 3. How do HM Customs, etc, handle the passengers
> to those intermediate stations in Kent ?

There are dedicated staff for travelers going to Europe. Inbound passengers clear immigration and customs in Paris, Lille or Bruxelles. The same would apply for newer stations. Note that a train tat stops in Calais cannot take on passengers to Lille or Paris, and the same applies within the HS1 line.
>
> 4. If a private operator had the expensive emu's
> that were Chunnel-rated, wouldn't it make the most
> sense to use them through the Chunnel as often as
> possible, thus limiting their 'penetration' beyond
> London, especially if they are already going
> farther afield such as Koln or Amsterdam ?

That depends on market research, I guess.
>
> 5. Does Stratford [ on HSR1 ] have good local
> connections to Canary Wharf, etc, eg, is it a
> viable destination for passengers from NoL other
> than transfer to Chunnel trains ?

Yes, I think it does, including the Docklands Light Railway into the City, though St. Pancras would be quicker anyway if going all the way. Stratford is near to the Docklands.
>
> Best, SZ

Steinzeit Wrote:
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> 3. How do HM Customs, etc, handle the passengers
> to those intermediate stations in Kent ?

International services use dedicated platforms at Ebbsfleet and Ashford, despite its name Startford International only sees domestic high speed service.

At least Stratford is already in place, for future use! Passing through today I noticed that the northern platforms had a few passengers, no doubt waiting for a Hitachi train. At least I hope they were!