European Railroad Discussion > OK, the UK has me baffled...

I'm not normally this helpless when it comes to scheduling rail travel. Honest! But I'm trying to put together an itinerary for a trip to the UK in July, and one section of it has me bewildered.

To make a long story short, my son and I will be visiting the Ffestinog Railway and the Welsh Higlands Railway over a weekend, and we want to ride the Jacobite steam operation out of Fort William in Scotland during the following week. I understand that doing this by rail will involve several changes of trains, but the most popular schedules web site seems to be telling me that it either can't be done at all or that it will take over 10 hours to accomplish. And even if I accept the lengthy itinerary, I don't get consistent results on routing and scheduling.

To complicate matters further, there's the issue of which end of the Welsh Highlands Ry to depart from. They connect with the national network at both ends. We'll be in wales for 3 days, and haven't decided where to stay, largely because we haven't figured out which location would be better in terms of getting to Scotland.

Does anybody have advice on how to schedule this? We haven't found any bus services that work well, either.

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not normally this helpless when it comes to
> scheduling rail travel. Honest! But I'm trying
> to put together an itinerary for a trip to the UK
> in July, and one section of it has me bewildered.
>
> To make a long story short, my son and I will be
> visiting the Ffestinog Railway and the Welsh
> Higlands Railway over a weekend, and we want to
> ride the Jacobite steam operation out of Fort
> William in Scotland during the following week. I
> understand that doing this by rail will involve
> several changes of trains, but the most popular
> schedules web site seems to be telling me that it
> either can't be done at all or that it will take
> over 10 hours to accomplish. And even if I accept
> the lengthy itinerary, I don't get consistent
> results on routing and scheduling.
>
> To complicate matters further, there's the issue
> of which end of the Welsh Highlands Ry to depart
> from. They connect with the national network at
> both ends. We'll be in wales for 3 days, and
> haven't decided where to stay, largely because we
> haven't figured out which location would be better
> in terms of getting to Scotland.
>
> Does anybody have advice on how to schedule this?
> We haven't found any bus services that work well,
> either.


Which communities would be the beginning and endpoint of your proposed travel?

Perhaps we need to check the German Rail website, the best in Europe.

Starting at either Blaenau Ffestiniog or Porthmadog, Wales and ending up in Fort William, Scotland.

I understand a change of stations is required in Glasgow, but I'm not sure of that.

Hi there from the UK

Ok to start with - that is quite a complex journey and I can understand why your baffled!

However the 10 hours journey is probably quite correct

The easiest route is:

Blaenau Ffestiniog - Llandudno Jct 1hr
Llandudno Jct - Crewe 1.5hrs
Crewe - Glasgow Central 3.5hrs

Have a walk across Glasgow to Queen St Stn

Glasgow Queen St - Fort William 4hrs

Of course that is a very basic answer.

The Jacobite is well worth doing and the run up from Glasgow fantastic!

Pete UK

The Welsh Highland doesn't connect with the national network at both ends, only at Porthmadog. The Ffestiniog does, Porthmadog and Blaenau.

I'm not really surprised it is taking 10 hour plus. Assuming you catch the first Ffestiniog train from Porthmadog at 10:10 you'll only arrive at Llandudno Junction at 12:44, that's half the day gone already and you've only done 30 miles. There's a 12:53 from Llandudno Junction which will get you to Warrington Bank Quay at 14:19. From there the 14:27 to Glasgow Central arriving 17:17. Quick walk or taxi to Queen Street and the 18:21 to Fort William arriving at 22:06, that's actually 4 minutes short of 12 hours.

Now I have been tight with the connections, 9 minutes at Llandudno Junction and 8 minutes at Bank Quay. The automated systems won't risk such connections, but without them you can't do it in a day, unless you ride the sleeper which stops at Crewe to pick up at 23:53 and gets you to Fort William at 09:55, 20 minutes before the Jacobite. The sleeper option means you have longer in North Wales. You can catch the 17:37 from Blaenau, stop for a leisurely dinner in Llandudno before getting the 20:43 from Llandudno, changing at Chester and arriving in Crewe at 22:50, a good hour before the Fort Bill Beds shows (railwaymen's slang for the sleeper).

Here's another option that takes longer but you would be traveling overnight. Go from Porthmadog to London. I believe its only one train change in Birmingham. Then the overnight sleeper from London Euston to Fort William arriving the next morning. Runs daily except Saturday. Saves cost of a hotel someplace and you are moving while sleeping. Its a really neat experience. A small breakfast delivered to your room in the morning is included. Both Welsh railways are great and weather permitting you should have a great day there.

One reason you are getting strange results is that booking tickets more than 12 weeks in advance does not work as most tickets are not available till then.

To see routes available put a false date in the day you wish to travel.

Another very annoying anomaly is that buying tickets for each part of the route can usually work out a lot cheaper than just buying a single ticket between your end points. There can be a downside to this because if you miss a connection you have just [depending on the type] lost your ticket and would need to buy another.

Alexander



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/14 04:14 by 3rdboxcar.

The summer timetables starts 18th May this year and the highland routes get a little more frequent (don't get too excited though). However, even within that timetable period there will be trains that only run in high summer although looking at the highland timetable for last year it doesn't look like that affects those routes.

As for tickets it's a bit confusing even for us locals. You can walk into a station on the day you want to travel and buy a ticket and walk onto the train. That same ticket can be purchased in advance - just make sure they understand you don't want to travel today and put the correct start date on it. So long as you buy at least 24 hours in advance you can request a seat reservation, if you don't you can sit in any unreserved seat and, since some seats are only reserved for part of the journey, any seat that is reserved for a part journey so long as you release it when the passenger does board. If I want to travel from home in Somerset to London I have found that the cheapest method if I want to go for the day is to buy separate "day return" tickets A-B-C-D (three tickets) at my local station get off at D, wait 20 minutes for the following train during which time I buy a 4th ticket into London which also includes the Underground and buses. However, the rules say that although I don't have to get off the train at B or C (or D) the train must stop at the station where I change from one ticket to the next so it all needs a little planning and I have to be careful on the way home because one train doesn't stop at D. Tickets that you can buy on the day tend to be the most expensive but they MAY allow a stopover (you have to read the rules for that fare).

Then you have what are known as "Advance" tickets. These are more like airline tickets and only valid on longer trips. You must buy at least 24 hours before departure and there is absolutely no guarantee that a fare will be offered. Fares tend to start cheap and go up nearer departure and 2 trains 5 minutes apart can have completely different advance fares. They are for single journeys so if you want a return you have to but 2 singles. Once booked you get a seat number and you MUST travel on the train booked on the date booked between the cities booked. You can't book E-G and get off a F or book E-G and board a F. There are facilities to change up to 24 hours in advance subject to fees and higher fares.

Sometimes you come across a city pair where there are no fares and the system tells you to buy separate tickets and with the "Advance" you come across a slightly grey area. What happens if the train with your first "Advance" ticket is delayed and you miss the 2nd "Advance" train? I've heard some people say you lose the 2nd and have to buy a new one. However, particularly if the system has said "buy 2 tickets" I would argue the 2nd remains valid but you have to take your chance on getting a seat.

Lastly, the system only shows dates/times up to 12 weeks in advance. The "Advance" fares are supposed to be loaded then but occasionally it doesn't happen. Somewhere on the website for each train operator you will find a note telling you what dates have been loaded for "Advance" tickets.

Good luck!

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's another option that takes longer but you
> would be traveling overnight. Go from Porthmadog
> to London. I believe its only one train change in
> Birmingham. Then the overnight sleeper from London
> Euston to Fort William arriving the next morning.
> Runs daily except Saturday. Saves cost of a hotel
> someplace and you are moving while sleeping. Its a
> really neat experience. A small breakfast
> delivered to your room in the morning is included.
> Both Welsh railways are great and weather
> permitting you should have a great day there.

Why go to London, the sleeper stops at Crewe? Incidentally there's no Arriva Trains Wales service north of Barmouth at the moment on account of damage during the autumn and winter storms. National Rail still haven't given a reopening date.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/14 12:34 by 86235.

My advise for British railway Ticketing is to spend a lot of time play-testing with the tickets before you buy. It took two years of planning but when it was all said and done I ended up traveling very cheaply, mostly on Advance Tickets. I used a US issued American Express card for most of the tickets and a Chase Visa for the few where the AMX wasn't accepted. I was able to obtain my tickets from the station agents and in the case of a very busy Sheffield I was able to retrieve them from the ticket machine.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?17,3185926,3185926#msg-3185926

One other thought is to use the National Rail connection times (other than London). At first when planning I was attempting to allow an hour for connections and it added way too much time to the trip. I then used the National Rail recommended times and was never let down. Even though twelve minutes at Preston seams impossible, it worked, we even had time to spare after crossing over to the other platform. For tight connections take a look at the station maps on the National Rail site to see if they look doable to you. They break it down with pictures and even tell you how many steps are involved. The National Rail site also shows what platform the train is supposed to be at so you can plan ahead.

Jim

Forget buying individual train tickets. Buy a Brittrail pass from Rail Europe. (you must buy it in North America...not once there). Its good for the entire island. You can choose the number of days you want and ride any train you want without reservations. I recommend a first class pass as second class is often standing room only. However note that many trains on non main routes only offer second class. It all depends on where you want to go.

Forget buying individual train tickets. Buy a Brittrail pass from Rail Europe. (you must buy it in North America...not once there). Its good for the entire island. You can choose the number of days you want and ride any train you want without reservations. I recommend a first class pass as second class is often standing room only. However note that many trains on non main routes only offer second class. It all depends on where you want to go.

The Rail Europe Pass of course is easiest to use if you have no plan whatsoever. The problem is you are paying for the entire place. I looked into it and found the Rail Europe pass was more money than what I would spend doing it our way. If you have a plan don't be afraid to do the combination of Advance Ticketing and other options. Over the course of a month I spent less than £500 for both of us using Advance Ticketing, Rovers and other stuff. If you plan on staying in one or a couple regions you may also want to try out some of the Rovers and Rangers that National Rail offers http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/rangers_and_rovers.aspx.

This Summer since I will be mostly in the Midlands yet uncertain as to where I will be going I plan on using three of the flexible multiday passes, the Hadrian's Wall Rover and Manchester Wayfarer. There will also be some Return Tickets involved along with Advance Tickets to get from London to Doncaster and from Birmingham to London coming back. In your case, the Rovers for Scotland do run a bit more then the ones for the Midlands (I guess more people want to see Scotland than Derby?). Scotland the tickets are more expensive in general, in fact we rode Megabus up not only to ride Megabus but also to save money. In several cases though I have found that the Rovers and Rangers pay for themselves after only a couple rides so do your research and find out what works best for you.

Also, I don't know if anyone mentioned it but if one of you is over 60 get a Senior Railcard. http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/

It takes a third off any fare, yes, any fare. Since you do not have a UK address you will have to buy it in person when you get over there but you can make all the ticket reservations as if yo already have the card. You will merely have add the Senior Rail card when you enter the passenger information. For only £30 we saved a buttload of money using it for my dad and seriously speaking it was probably one of the things that made it possible to take him along for the whole month. It just takes a but of research but at least you are starting out with some extra time.

Have Fun!

Jim

Railcards, now there's a thought. There are a number of them; under 26, over 60, valid in the southeast only, any 2 people together, etc. Investigate here www.railcard.co.uk

We'll be travelling with US-bought BritRail passes, so the cost factor doesn't really apply. But the idea of making a tight connection without having the connecting train tickets in hand already is kind of scary.

Also, haven't figured out yet how to upgrade from a Brit Rail ticket to the overnight sleeper train. That option does sound pleasant, though.

Thanks much for the suggestions so far...

I had no trouble immediately finding connections on DB.com from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Fort William, 1146 to 2206, with 3 changes. As others have said, it may be useful to start out with dates within close proximity, on the same day of the week as you are planning to travel. That will give a general idea of what's out there. Then, you can try other variations.

DB.com takes me to Deutsche Bank's web site.

march_hare Wrote:
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> DB.com takes me to Deutsche Bank's web site.

March,

Try www.db.de

J.

If you have time while in Port Mortmadog, take a walk over the
causeway (about a mile) to Boston Lodge where the Ffestiniog has
their shops. If you ask politely at the office, you have a
reasonable chance of being given a quick tour of the place. It's
fascinating!

Also if you're a fan of the old Patrick McGoohan series "The Prisoner",
you'll want to stay at the Portmeirion Hotel. It's grounds comprises
"The Village" used for the TV series. It's just over the hill (about
1/2 mile) from the Boston Lodge, you can hear the steam whistles from
the hotel.

- Bruce

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Starting at either Blaenau Ffestiniog or
> Porthmadog, Wales and ending up in Fort William,
> Scotland.
>
> I understand a change of stations is required in
> Glasgow, but I'm not sure of that.

J.Ferris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> march_hare Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DB.com takes me to Deutsche Bank's web site.
>
> March,
>
> Try www.db.de
>
> J.

Better still try www.bahn.com

My advice to March Hare is buy a copy of the European Rail Timetable so that you can see the timetables all laid out in proper fashion and then decide which way you want to go. So much better than using websites.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/14 15:46 by 86235.