Railroaders' Nostalgia > Another Quick Lesson Pt III A Clueless TM And A Crew Pays The

this is one of those stories where ya just wanna dig a hole and push the stupid f#@k in and fill it in ... i'm sure that's just how this crew felt after what this clown did ... this incident was where the yard crew learned their lesson the HARD WAY by way of the instructions given by their boss ... the crew probably thought they were sticking it to the manager but they found out the HARD WAY that things don't always go as planned ...

one frozen winter night at the beginning of this century in Amtrak's Penn Coach Yard in Philly which is adjacent to 30th St Station a yard crew, i believe YP-3, was working 3rd trick in the yard ... their main job every night was to wye any incoming West End Harrisburg train sets that 2nd trick hadn't wyed and setup the next day's Harrisburg trains changing out any shop cars and power if needed ...

presently Amtrak trains working the Keystone Corridor for 110mph have train set consists of a Sprinter ACS-64 or Meatball AEM-7 electric motor/4 cars /cab car and they roundtrip NYC-HAR with the last trains terminating in PCY for the next mornings run but before the Key-Cor 110 mph upgrade project, the west end trains only ran roundtrip PHL-HAR and consists were usually a P-42/5 cars and the trains would need to be wyed at both end terminals in Philly and Harrisburg ...

the PC's at the south end of the yard are west to east, the shop lead, yard tracks 37-20 sans 35,31,29,27,25 tracks, and 4 Race ... now there's a paved road crossing that crosses the entire yard (14 tracks) to get to Race St Engine House ... i did say frozen winter and there had been a 3 week freeze with no thaw so everything was frozen solid ... on this particular day/night a slushy snow had fallen and the flangeways in the crossing were clogged and frozen ...

so here's where the fun begins ... my job that night was to work with the yard crew to clear all the flangeways in the crossing and then the yard crew could start setting up their west end morning trains ... we were using a lite unit P-42 which is heavy enough to crush the frozen slush but one caveat was first i had to have one of my guys burn out/melt the frozen slush in the flangeways using a gas/diesel mix then i had one of my other guys using a backpack power blower blow out the flangeways and then the crew could run through the crossing making a flangeway ...

the system was working fine and we were about 1/2 way done around 2am ... well along comes a fairly new appointed TM (Train Manager) who i knew and dealt with when he was a tower opr and then disp ... back then he was an ok kid (mid 20s) to deal with ... i never had any problems with him ... he was a competent disp ... he seemed secure and made good decisions ...

well when some of these guys move into management somehow they loose themselves and either become insecure nervous nellies and make silly decisions or indecisions or they become over confident arrogant SOBs and their way is the ONLY way but what they FORGET is what they learned through the years was from the people that are now their subordinates and instead of using these guys to help them do their jobs they turn into egotistical overbearing RICHARDS ...

this particular TM became one of the nervous nellie types ... he was getting nervous that the trains wouldn't be setup in time for their morning runs ... so now he wants to rush and expedite the job by having the crew grab a cut of 5 amfleets pulling south over a cleared crossing and shoving north with an amfleet car on the point over a flangeway that we hadn't cleared yet ...

i tell him we hadn't cleared the flangeways (not even burned out) on that track yet and the amfleet is too light and not going to be able to make a flangeway ... he replies in his nervous demeanor, that he needs the morning trains setup and the amfleet will be heavy enough to run through the frozen flangeway ... i inform the conductor, who already knew that we hadn't cleared that flangeway yet ... he in turn tells the TM his concerns of the lightweight amfleet not being heavy enough to crush the frozen slush ... the crew objects but don't outright refuse ...

Skeletor, my self name reference for the TM, orders the crew to make the shove ... now you all know where this is heading right ... the crew thinking and doing what any other crew would do knowing what's bound to happen and that is "ok if that's what he wants then that's what he'll get" ... the crew makes the shove with the conductor on point opposite from me on my side, Skeletor's on my side next to me ... i forgot to mention the tracks are on a tight curve through the crossing ...

so i'm standing there and i'm shaking my head telling him this is a real bad idea and don't ya know it, as soon as the lead truck hits the flangeway, it rides right up on the flangeway onto the crossing ... i yell for the conductor to stop the move which he does ... Skeletor starts to panic and freakin out sayin he's gonna be in deep s#%t and will have to explain on the morning call why the Harrisburgers weren't setup ... i tell him to calm down ... all the crew has to do is pull south and the truck will rerail on the frog 15ft from the crossing ...

guess what nervous nellie says next ... "i'm gonna have to call the derailment committee" ... i'm like "WTF are you talking about ... you're gonna wake up people at 3 in the morning over THIS" ... he says "i have to i have no choice" ... i reiterate "pull the train south, the truck will rerail with the snow packed as high as the railhead the truck will run right up on the frog and rerail ...

the conductor, knowing what's in store for the crew if Skeletor makes that call, is trying to convince him to make the pull ... he wouldn't relent saying he'll be in more trouble if he doesn't make the call ... he makes the call and says to the crew "you guys gotta go to Presbyterian Hospital to go for P TESTS ...

Skeletor calls for a van and off they went for an infraction they didn't want to do but were ordered to do by some nervous manager who the crew thought they were going to teach a lesson but as it turned out, the crew wound up with a lesson learned ... the whole incident, in my mind a minor issue, could've been solved by first off letting us do what was working in the first place and when the infraction did occur, the TM should've made his own decision but instead since he didn't have the confidence to make his own decision, the whole thing turned into a big fiasco that i'm sure he had to answer for ... i'm sure he didn't admit to it, in his morning call, for being the reason the infraction happened in the first place ... his feeble efforts were counterproductive and the outcome turned out to be just the opposite of what he wanted to accomplish ... a crew OOS and the Harrisburgers not setup for the morning runs ...

Posted from Android



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/15 06:59 by Out_Of_Service.

Amtrak at "it's" worst.  Same in 1971, same today.

Another reason why I'm glad I kept railroading strictly as a hobby & persued a career in another industry....

Desmond Praeztel, "4451 Puff"

Just as bad as some managers I know at Wal Mart, including a Team leader when I was an Unloader! If I was on that crew I would've been pissed off and never made that guys' job that much easier!

I believe this problem exists in every walk of life. It certainly did in the fire/ems service and still does today, but not for me!

I sure enjoy these stories, keep them up!

Thanks
KR

The TM is the one that should of been drug tested!

Posted from Android

The TM should've pulled out of service for ordering the crew to do that!

ERAD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The TM is the one that should of been drug tested!
>
>
> Posted from Android

espeefan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The TM should've pulled out of service for
> ordering the crew to do that!

apparently neither of you have worked for a major railroad carrier before ... the railroad has a way of sometimes turning one time decent employees into weasels ...

i don't know ... i have to wonder if any other TM that put themself in that type of situation wudda had the integrity to be a stand up boss and it say it wasn't the crew's fault, it was their fault and that they'd take 30 days off no pay ...

i'd be willing to bet my yearly annuity 99% of the TMs wudda done the same thing as that TM ... just sayin ...

my point is a good TM wouldn't had put themself in that situation in the first place ... he wudda not have panicked and wudda listened and had faith that his crews were going to have everything done in time ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/15 15:26 by Out_Of_Service.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ERAD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The TM is the one that should of been drug
> tested!
> >
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> espeefan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The TM should've pulled out of service for
> > ordering the crew to do that!
>
> apparently neither of you have worked for a major
> railroad carrier before ... the railroad has a way
> of sometimes turning one time decent employees
> into weasels ...
>
> i don't know ... i have to wonder if any other TM
> that put themself in that type of situation wudda
> had the integrity to be a stand up boss and it say
> it wasn't the crew's fault, it was their fault and
> that they'd take 30 days off no pay ...
>
> i'd be willing to bet my yearly annuity 99% of the
> TMs wudda done the same thing as that TM ... just
> sayin ...
>
> my point is a good TM wouldn't had put themself in
> that situation in the first place ... he wudda not
> have panicked and wudda listened had faith his
> crews were going have everything done in time ...


It's not just the railroad industry either. Here at AT&T when one of the worker bees goes over to the "dark side" and becomes a Manager they almost always change.
Matter of fact they can get canned of they don't toe the company line. And since they're management now, the union can't help them.

I've been on a eastern class one for 17 years as an engineer so I do know how they can mess up a good mgr.!  

  >PHall Wrote:
> It's not just the railroad industry either. Here
> at AT&T when one of the worker bees goes over to
> the "dark side" and becomes a Manager they almost
> always change.
> Matter of fact they can get canned of they don't
> toe the company line. And since they're management
> now, the union can't help them.

Same as the RR in that case, the union cannot help. But, at ATT, can the managment person return to seniorioty?

V

SLOCONDR

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>   >PHall Wrote:
> > It's not just the railroad industry either.
> Here
> > at AT&T when one of the worker bees goes over
> to
> > the "dark side" and becomes a Manager they
> almost
> > always change.
> > Matter of fact they can get canned of they
> don't
> > toe the company line. And since they're
> management
> > now, the union can't help them.
>
> Same as the RR in that case, the union cannot
> help. But, at ATT, can the managment person return
> to seniorioty?
>
> V
>
> SLOCONDR

Nope, that was the First thing that changed when the SBC guys from Texas took over.

PHall Wrote:
>
> Nope, that was the First thing that changed when
> the SBC guys from Texas took over.

With that in mind, it would a pretty hard decision to make whether to go into management or not.


V

SLOCONDR

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SLOCONDR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >   >PHall Wrote:
> > > It's not just the railroad industry either.
> > Here
> > > at AT&T when one of the worker bees goes over
> > to
> > > the "dark side" and becomes a Manager they
> > almost
> > > always change.
> > > Matter of fact they can get canned of they
> > don't
> > > toe the company line. And since they're
> > management
> > > now, the union can't help them.
> >
> > Same as the RR in that case, the union cannot
> > help. But, at ATT, can the managment person
> return
> > to seniorioty?
> >
> > V
> >
> > SLOCONDR
>
> Nope, that was the First thing that changed when
> the SBC guys from Texas took over.


   I heard way back when, the BN tried to force all their managers to sign away their craft seniority, but whan faced with mass resignations, they backed off.  Cewherry, can you verify this, or was it one of those street legends?

Brian Black

tehachcond Wrote:

>
>    I heard way back when, the BN tried to force
> all their managers to sign away their craft
> seniority, but whan faced with mass resignations,
> they backed off.  Cewherry, can you verify this,
> or was it one of those street legends?

I remember the same - after the Frisco takeo...uh...merger.

TAW

Right around the time of the ATSF / BN merger the Vice President of Operations was pushing for all Road Forman of Engines to relinquish their seniority but backed off.  There was some reason why he backed off but I can't recall what it was.

Mark Cole

Yes, I can confirm. But for some reason that escapes me as of this writing I was somehow able to avoid
having to make that decision on the BN. It may have been because upper management saw the folly in it and axed the
policy before it was placed in effect. I just can't remember.

What I do know however is no sane person would work under those terms in the operating department of
any railroad I know of unless they had effectively no seniority to speak of. Or maybe the wife had threatened desertion
if she had to endure one more day in some backwater locale or the poor sap took the job to escape some other
real or imagined boogeyman.

The fact's are that without representation (in the form of a union local chairman) you have no recourse
or platform to defend yourself when somebody 'up there' doesn't like you enough to threaten your employment with dismissal.
I know, been there, done that.

Charlie   

KskidinTx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right around the time of the ATSF / BN merger the
> Vice President of Operations was pushing for all
> Road Forman of Engines to relinquish their
> seniority but backed off.  There was some reason
> why he backed off but I can't recall what it was.

That is about the time that the company also proposed the same for promotion from the train dispatcher craft. It didn't take a lot of brain power to figure out that was inconsistent with promoting a lot of new, low-experience train dispatchers from the extra board in order to have plenty of uh...qualified, that's it, qualified train dispatchers to work through strikes. No recourse = no interest = nobody to run the railroad during a strike = bad plan.

TAW

Many of the rail unions were successful in getting a requirement in the agreements that required someone who was promoted ( example: Carman to car foreman) to pay union dues or lose their seniority.  Most rail managers felt betrayed by upper management when a provision like that took effect.  I never was a union member while employed by Santa Fe in supervision for 22 years.  Sure, I had some superiors who I didn't feel comfortable with but over all, they treated me well, paid extremely well, and the 401 plan was a huge benefit.

TIOGA PASS

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar

How was it that the crew was held out of service for obeying the TM's instructions?