Railroaders' Nostalgia > Demerits for railroader infractions of the rules

I barely qualify to post to this page as I only worked summers for the Santa Fe for 7 years (1953-1959). But I was from a railroad family and heard and observed many railroad events and discussions in those years. I was wondering if demerits for rules infractions were handled on all railroads like they were on the Santa Fe back then. I used to hear about someone getting "30 brownies" or more for some infraction of the rules. The more serious the infraction, the higher the "brownies". I have no clue where the name "brownie" came from............perhaps refers to animal droppings, etc. :-) Engineers occasionally received a few brownies for speeding, etc. It was always said that an engineer wasn't worth his salt unless he carried at least 30 brownies in his record. I guess the brownies were eventually worked off with time and there was some maximum where you were summarily ejected out the door. I hear today that safety rules are enforced a lot more than 50 years ago and it's a lot easier to get fired.

One case I heard of was an engineer (one of the best on the division) and his fireman were each given 60 brownies for having helped another engineer into his cab at Newton, KS. It turned out that the engineer being helped was drunk.

Joe Watts

My understanding was that the system of apportioning and recording an employees rule infractions was developed by a fella named Brown. Thus, a score of "Brownies".

Not all roads used this system. During my service on the CB&Q I was involved in two events which resulted in metal being bent. In each case a hearing conducted by the Division Supt. was held, with all employees on my crew invited, along with a union rep. for each of us.

In each case, I was found guilty as charged for a certain rule infraction* which resulted in the "incident". For each of these my discipline was to receive a letter, worded "Censured for violation of Rule 908." No time off. No lynching. No anything in between - just "censured".

* CB&Q Rule 908 is a full page long in the Q rulebook, but essentially it states that if anything goes wrong, you're responsible, no matter what else you did to make it go right.

-Larry Doyle

That is a "kangaroo court".

We had a lot of guys get "Brownies" but I never heard of someone getting fired over it. The max you were allowed was 90 and then the sidewalk.

We had one poor guy in SLO, Charlie Thorne "Mortimer Sneerd", that couldn't win for losing. He had just been given 60 days for something he did around Santa Barb. Well, it wasn't 2 months later, he ran into the back of No. 373 as it was changing crews in SLO. Nobody hurt, 5 mph, but a cab & motor were sent to the house for repairs. They had to take back the first 60 and give him another 60 for this one.


Nudge

The Brown System of Discipline.

This is what the late Freeman Hubbard, editor of Railroad Magazine said in his 1945 book "Railroad Avenue" on the subject of 'Brownies'.

"BROWNIES---Demerits. This system is traced back to George R. Brown, general superintendent of the Fall Brook Railway (now part of the New York Central) in 1885.
He thought the then current practice of suspending men for breaking rules was unfair to their families and substituted a system of demerit marks. Too many
demerits given in a period resulted in dismissal. The Brown system, with many variations, has since been widely adopted by the railroad industry. A superintendent's
car is called brownie box or brownie wagon."


On the SP, 'brownies' could be reduced or 'worked-off' by staying out of trouble for a period of time until you record was 'clear'. I don't remember what
the formula for removing demerits was but supposedly 90 was the maximum you could be assessed and as Nudge has noted, I too never knew of someone being
fired for having too many 'brownies' on their record. If you got in more trouble while your record had the maximum of 90 demerits then the practice would be to remove
the 'oldest' in point of time assessed and replace them with 'newer' demerits thereby extending the time where your record would be 'clear'.

Just when the Brown system vanished on the SP I don't know; probably in the 1980's and about the same time on the BN.

Charlie

On the Santa Fe, demerits were issued for rules infractions; such as 10 demerits for running thru a switch or 20 demerits for derailing a car, and so forth. When something occurred, the trainmaster could "close out" the incident by having the employee responsible sign for the demerits and waive his right to an investigation. If the employee didn't want to sign, then the trainmaster could schedule a hearing, called a formal investigation. At the investigation, another trainmaster would conduct the hearing, and the employee was allowed someone in the same class of service to represent him. The employee got a chance to tell his story and other witnesses could be called to the hearing. In that hearing, the employee could be given the number of demerits originally offered. On the other hand, if, in the trainmaster's judgement, dismissal was necessary, then an investigation was always held.
If an employee had a clear record for 4 months, ten demerits would be erased from his record. If an employee accumulated over 60 demerits on the Santa Fe, (90 on the SP), the employee could be withheld from service until the union could convince the superintendent that the employee had learned his lesson, so to speak.
Now let's suppose that a really good, hard working employee makes a mistake and derails some equipment. Of course, the superintendent will know of it, so a record must be made of the incident, right? So I make out a waiver for 20 demerits for the employee to sign, and he does sign it. Later the supt. says "How did you close out that derailment, Norm?" I could honestly say good old Jack signed for 20, boss!
A few months later, Jack and I were having coffee in the locker room, and I handed his signed waiver to him, saying "You left this in my office a while back!" I never did say I turned the waiver in to the office, did I?
I held probably 50 investigations in my time as a trainmaster for Santa Fe. I can recall many amusing, even hilarious incidents arising in the course of investigations, but most of them are too long or complicated to tell here.

TIOGA PASS

'

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/18 00:04 by aronco.

cewherry Wrote:
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> A superintendent's car is called the
> brownie box or brownie wagon."


I can hear my dad and grandad both laughing at that one. But I do remember that just about everyone and everything on the railroad had a nickname. The agent in the town where I worked was always known (to everyone but him) as "The Wheel."
Joe

On the SP there were other names for the demerit system... days, dummies; etc. The question I always had was if there is demerit system ..where is the merit system???

I remember a few investigations that had to be postponed, so that a few Brownies would time out or expire, allowing the victim to be loaded up with 10 or 15 more, and keep working.

SanJoaquinEngr Wrote:
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> The question I always had was if there is demerit system ..where
> is the merit system???

Your paycheck, according to the carriers.

When I was a new hire, when I asked why merits were not given out, my training officer stuttered, "Because you are SUPPOSED to do your job!" But what if you go above and beyond the call? Shouldn't you get merits for that? No answer - apparently the idea had never crossed that person's mind. Such is railroading.


EO

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On the Western Pacific IIRC you could receive up to 74 demerits in one year. Anymore and you would have time off. And if your were incident free for the year you received an amount of “good brownies”. Can’t remember how many that was.

aronco Wrote:
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.".....In that hearing, the
> employee could be given the number of demerits
> originally offered."....

I had forgotten that particular detail.

The SP engineers agreement stated: "An engineer not electing to waive his right to an investigation will not, as a result of the evidence adduced
at the investigation, if found at fault, be assessed a greater measure of discipline than would have been assessed had the investigation been waived".

In plainspeak; you couldn't get more brownies if you went to investigation and lost than if you signed for them and stayed marked-up. Of course, the downside
to this tactic is that other facts might be developed at the investigation that you wished to remain hidden; i.e. the reason you didn't stop before Wabashing
into the side of the other train is that you weren't looking looking in the direction of movement.

See my: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?18,3938960,3938960#msg-3938960

Sometimes it's better to sign the waiver and thus keep a low profile although this one didn't end up that way. It really should have.

Charlie

"BROWNIES---Demerits. This system is traced back to George R. Brown, general superintendent of the Fall Brook Railway (now part of the New York Central) in 1885.
The Fall Brook Office Building in Corning, NY that Mr. Brown had his office in was demolished about ten years ago as part of the demolition of some of the Corning Glass Fall Brook plant. The property is now owned by World Kitchen makers of Corelleware.

As a non-rail guy, but somebody who saw a lot of minor derailments due to crappy track back in the 1970s, I wonder whether demerits were assigned simply on the basis that there had been a derailment, or was there some effort expended to determine fault?

In 1974, watched a PC switch job in Utica NY that went on the ground on the curve approaching a switch because three consecutive ties, all of them rotted in place, failed and spread the gauge. All three of them literally split in two and sank into the mud. This was at 5 mph or less. Would those guys have faced some kind of discipline?

And was there a demerit system for M of E employees, or just Operating Department?

march_hare Wrote:
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> As a non-rail guy, but somebody who saw a lot of
> minor derailments due to crappy track back in the
> 1970s, I wonder whether demerits were assigned
> simply on the basis that there had been a
> derailment, or was there some effort expended to
> determine fault?
>
> In 1974, watched a PC switch job in Utica NY that
> went on the ground on the curve approaching a
> switch because three consecutive ties, all of them
> rotted in place, failed and spread the gauge. All
> three of them literally split in two and sank into
> the mud. This was at 5 mph or less. Would those
> guys have faced some kind of discipline?
>
> And was there a demerit system for M of E
> employees, or just Operating Department?


I would surmise that by then on the PC that one would would go without procecution and the section foreman would have finally got the new ties he requested back in 1970. After they helped cleanup the mess of course.

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a non-rail guy, but somebody who saw a lot of
> minor derailments due to crappy track back in the
> 1970s, I wonder whether demerits were assigned
> simply on the basis that there had been a
> derailment, or was there some effort expended to
> determine fault?
>
> In 1974, watched a PC switch job in Utica NY that
> went on the ground on the curve approaching a
> switch because three consecutive ties, all of them
> rotted in place, failed and spread the gauge. All
> three of them literally split in two and sank into
> the mud. This was at 5 mph or less. Would those
> guys have faced some kind of discipline?
>
> And was there a demerit system for M of E
> employees, or just Operating Department?


Under the RLA and by collective bargaining agreement, all scheduled railway employees have the right to due process. The carrier cannot arbitrarily access demerits or any discipline unless the charged employee accepts responsibility and waives such rights including the right to appeal.

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Under the RLA and by collective bargaining
> agreement, all scheduled railway employees have
> the right to due process. The carrier cannot
> arbitrarily access demerits or any discipline
> unless the charged employee accepts responsibility
> and waives such rights including the right to
> appeal.

I believe that any emplorer can place notes/demerits onto an employees record. Taking any action would be subject to a union contract.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chico43 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Under the RLA and by collective bargaining
> > agreement, all scheduled railway employees have
> > the right to due process. The carrier cannot
> > arbitrarily access demerits or any discipline
> > unless the charged employee accepts
> responsibility
> > and waives such rights including the right to
> > appeal.
>
> I believe that any emplorer can place
> notes/demerits onto an employees record. Taking
> any action would be subject to a union contract.


Maybe it's that way where you work. Where I worked the charged employee has the right to face his accusers and have any witnesses that he desires appear on his behalf at a formal investigation before any discipline can be assessed. Demerits can be assessed without formal hearing only if the employee signs a waiver to that effect and no scheduled (union) employee can be dismissed without being afforded a hearing. Exempt (non-union) employees are considered at-will and can be escorted off the property at a moment's notice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/18 17:06 by Chico43.