Railroaders' Nostalgia > Pre-Amtrak Passenger Crews???

This is too general a question for one answer, but I'll throw it out there to perhaps get the ball rolling. Pre-Amtrak, how did the various carriers assign their passenger train and engine crews?

Did the men working the trains bid onto a specific run? Did they bid into a pool that filled the jobs (like a freight pool)?

How about extra boards? Were vacancies filled from the same boards as freight vacancies?

Realizing that the different crafts (let alone the different roads....or even different areas of the same road) probably to some degree had different procedures.....Does anyone have any information or memories they care to share?

Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/24 20:20 by RetiredHogger.

Braking for Santa Fe out of Los Angeles in 1973, I can tell ya that at that early date, things were still Santa Fe All the Way. With a SF passenger uniform, I made a handful of trips to Needles, CA and turn on nos. 4 and 3 and quite a few trips from LA to San Diego and turn.

On the ATSF the jobs out of KC were bid in and always went high seniority as you can imagine.  Some runs went through 2 crew districts so there was equalization issues to deal with in some instances although one side could be one district and the other side another district.

On the SCL the engineers worked ever how the job was set up in that terminal. If an engineer marked off, not a common problem, an engineer could claim that job for the duration of his being off. This led to lots of sharp shooting,midnight phone calls, crew clerk payments, etc. The payments were called round house dues. 
They seldom had to lay off because they knew when they were going to work a month in advance. I did know one that swapped trips with friends so he could watch his son play football on Friday nights..
The conductor was a senior position also. They had to pro rate miles between SAL&ACL and between various districts. I don't know how they did that but every one was reasonably satisfied.
The firemen were all SCL and we didn't go with the engineers on some of their trips.

Sam

The UP passenger crews in Denver  were staffed by highest seniority folks, if they wanted.  The highest pay was still in freight, but having sceduled runs was golden,  so often the highest seniortity guys if money was needed worked freight, otherwise frequently the 2nd highest  was getting the best  passenger runs, intermixed.

"Round house dues!"   Interesting, I had never heard that term before now, implying bribing a crew clerk could insure you a good train.  We had one conductor who's wife was a crew clerk and he sure got more than his share of good trains but if anyone ever paid a crew clerk off I had never heard of it where I worked.  Ok guys, did it happen where you worked?

I believe the engineers had to be "passenger qualified" by, I assume, the road foreman.

I know that PC had at least one turn that came out of Niles, Mich. with a piggyback train
for Park Manor in Chicago and the crew turned on continuous time for an amtrak back to Niles.

Calling RodneyZona !!!!
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/24 04:32 by Englewood.

Englewood Wrote:
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> I believe the engineers had to be "passenger
> qualified" by, I assume, the road foreman.
>
> I know that PC had at least one turn that came out
> of Niles, Mich. with a piggyback train
> for Park Manor in Chicago and the crew turned on
> continuous time for an amtrak back to Niles.
>
> Calling RodneyZona !!!!
>  everybody has to be qualified!   

Amtrak Santa Fe jobs in Los Angeles were all bid in jobs includeing yard jobs with, "I think", a specified passenger engineers extra board. Conductor and brakeman jobs were called off the extra board. To be on the brakeman or conductor extra board required a uniform.
JB

ATSF Coast Lines they were bid assignments. In LA the San Diegans were three on and three off. Nos 3&4 and 35 and 36 were also bid but worked every day. To be used off the engrs extra board you had to be passenger qualified. Sometimes if there were enough vacancies a passenger engineers extra board was established and you worked only passenger.Other than the the noisy headend power on single unit trains after the steam gereators wre gone these were super jobs. regular hours regular days off and short work days. When we lost these jobs you never really had much to forward to. Seniority was quite high on the San Diegans ,but much less so on the overland long distance trains. Bill Webb 

Rodney on vacation?

dan Wrote:
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> Rodney on vacation?

His appearances have been sporadic for the past year or so.

I was fortunate to fulfill my life long desire to work in passenger engine service for both Seaboard Coast Line and Southern Railway.  If you were passenger qualified you could bid in posted passenger permanent vacancies, claim temporary vacancies in passenger service, or get called for extra passenger service off the passenger qualified lists.  Early on in my SCL days, I asked my general road foreman of engines J.J.W. Looney to passenger qualify me ASAP.  He was an experienced Atlantic Coast Line passenger man and a good guy.  He tested me in his office, in the field, and on the engines.  The passenger jobs and vacancies often went "cheap".  Guys didn't want to qualify, didn't want the responsibility or attention, didn't like working 7 days a week, didn't like the engine troublshooting required, or didn't like the high speed.  I wound up working passenger with little seniority.  Later when I started firing to Richmond VA, the RF&P stationmaster had to qualify me on getting in and out of the big passenger station at Broad Street.  On the Southern I marked up passenger qualified.  On the Southern I made a lot of extra days being called in to fire extra passenger movements like second sections of the Southern Crescent, steam excursion, and the long "School Boy Patrol Trains" we ran each spring to Washington.  I also got pressed into off district emergency passenger firing (Birmingham AL to Atlanta and Atlanta - Greenville SC.  I was just in the right place at the right time.  Several times I made extra money by immediately doubling back out of my home terminal- Greenville SC - account they couldn't find another rested passenger fireman for the Southern Crescent.  They held the northbound Southern Crescent in the Greenville station until I came in on the southbound Piedmont mixed passenger-pig train.  I would quickly jump off one train and onto the other, taking off quickly.  The four E8's on the Southern Crescent could help in making up lost time.

The runs I worked were bulletined with assigned trains in both directions.  You had two crews (sides) assigned to these rotations to provide daily service - 7 days a week with no rest days.  On the SCL we had to put in mileage slips and mark off for mileage.  On the Southern we didn't track mileage - we just kept working.  On the SCL we had passenger "swing" jobs to cover mileage mark offs.  One was kinda unusual.  I worked the Silver Star from Hamlet NC to Columbia SC for a week.  Then I worked the Star from Hamlet to Raleigh NC for a week.  Then I worked a Portsmouth VA time freight from Hamlet to Rocky Mount NC.  That freight still had an assigned fireman off for mileage.  Later I worked another "passenger swing" covering two passenger trains - the Silver Star and the winter season Vacationer.  The trainmen were usually bulletined differently with them working over two districts on a run.  My most cherished memories of nearly 51 years railroading are working the "glass window jobs" (passenger trains) - working mostly 7 nights a week.  The nights working on E's and F's far outshine the final days of PSR, PTC, TO, Leader, and rebooting onboard computers.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/24 13:31 by Notch7.

I can only speak for engineers working the Coast Starlight between Oakland and San Luis Obispo on the SP. It was an interdivisional run with assignments awarded based on
mileage. The Coast Division had by far the most mileage and owned two assignments year round and one for six months. A Western Division engineer got that job for the other six months. The jobs went out every third day and included a long but enjoyable 24 hour layover in SLO. Vacations and layoffs were covered by an extra passenger board, which also protected the SP commute fleet. If that was exhausted, the job went to the freight/yard extra board based in San Francisco. For a short time, when the Spirit of California was running, crews made two roundtrips per week, either starting on the Starlight and returning on the Spirit or vice versa. They were very high seniority jobs and while I never had the seniority to work them full time, I was often able to catch one off the passenger board or better yet, sharpshoot myself into a 4-5 week vacation hold down. Good times.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/24 14:01 by CPCoyote.

Notch 7,  I  wholeheartedly agree with 2 things you said , RFE JJWLooney being a good man. I had him and another gentleman named Buck Bennett as instructors in engineer school 49 years ago. They were outstanding teachers and men. The other thing is fooling with an E-8 or a steam generator was a helluva lot easier than a computer. Curious, did you know Ralph Pharis? I had him for the mechanical parts of engineer school. He wanted  everyone to be gas devoted to the rr as he was.

Sam

RetiredHogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is too general a question for one answer, but
> I'll throw it out there to perhaps get the ball
> rolling. Pre-Amtrak, how did the various carriers
> assign their passenger train and engine crews?
>
> Did the men working the trains bid onto a specific
> run? Did they bid into a pool that filled the jobs
> (like a freight pool)?

On SP's Los Angeles Div, between LA and Yuma in the late 1950's through the 60's as long as trains such as the Sunset, 
Golden State and the remnant of the Imperial, Nos 39-40 ran, each of the aforementioned trains required a so-called 'pool' of 4 
engineers and firemen. These crews worked only those trains, not truly a pool, rather an assignment where there was no
mixing among the trains named. As permanent vacancies arose, these 12 engineers and firemen would occasionally 'bid-in' a
job on a different 'pool' depending on the conditions of the job they were presently working compared to those of the job that was 
becoming available; i.e. day work vs. night runs etc.  Of course, in the case of firemen, their tenure on passenger trains was generally
short lived as business levels dictated when the freight extra board would be increased meaning those firemen would be next assigned
as engineers and the climb up the seniority ladder began anew. 
>
> How about extra boards? Were vacancies filled from
> the same boards as freight vacancies?

Again, in regard to vacancies on the LA-Yuma run in the late 1950's until the beginning of Amtrak, both engineers and firemen
were supplied from their respective freight extra-boards at Los Angeles' Taylor Yard--no passenger extra boards being maintained.
That might have been different going back into earlier times.

When SP went to tri-weekly service on the Sunset, that train had only one assigned engine crew--working but two round-trips a week,
on and off duty at Taylor Yard. Passenger service train crews continued to go on and off duty at LAUPT (today's Union Station) as had been
the case since the opening of the station in 1939. Tuesday's No 2 from Los Angeles and Friday's No 1 from Yuma were filled from the
respective freight pools at LA-Taylor and Yuma.

CEW
 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/24 07:25 by cewherry.

Trainhand Wrote:
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> Notch 7,  Curious, did
> you know Ralph Pharis? I had him for the
> mechanical parts of engineer school. He wanted
>  everyone to be gas devoted to the rr as he was.
 The name sounds familiar, but I'm not sure.  He may have been the guy that carried me down to the Hamlet NC station one night in 1971.  I had to take the staion protection engine and put it on no. 57 - the southbound Silver Meteor.  This was before Amtrak monkeyed with our train and moved it over to the ACL side , plus took the signature tavern-observation off.  The Meteor was still the same mostly SCL engines and cars - usually at around 18 cars with 3 E's on the point.  SCL kept a protection E-unit in the station until Amtrak rerouted the Meteor - usually a E7.  I put the E7 on the point, leaving the ailing E in the lashup for Jacksonville to deal with.  But we got our version of the Silver Meteor out fast with added power.  At that time the Silver Star was only using two E's.  It was the off-season and I think it was a Miami only consist.  It was the last train we used our SCL B-units on.  It made a fine sight - slamming by at night with two E7's - an A and a B on the point.  After the Amtrak changes, our SCL E B-units just did freight service until their time to go.

On the ex-SAL side back then, we had basically traveling diesel supervisors.  They would catch up on passenger and pig trains having trouble, maybe some military trains too.  Bill Morse was at Raleigh NC.  He did great work and I learned from him.  Billy Lynn and others were at Hamlet.  Billy was a ex-ACL and gave me good pointers on the E7 relays.  W.C. Wright was our master mechanic at Hamlet.  He was ex-ACL, and his office was just off our report room at the Hamlet Diesel Shop.  Engine service people were still under the MM back then, and we submitted our job bids to him.  I never knew where GRFE Looney went until now.  I just thought he might have retired.  By then, I was at Raleigh, and I got on good with his replacement - Jack Green, another good ACL man.  As one of the guys working passenger on SCL back then,  I think we were lucky to have officers like these that knew the engines, knew how the passenger trains should be run, and took the continuing SCL pride in running in old and fine SCL passenger trains - the Silver Meteor, the Silver Star, the Champion, and the Florida Special.

I rode an Amtrak "San Joaquin" I guess it was called from Bakersfield to Fresno in the early 70s, a year or two after Amtrak was formed.   The conductor and brakemen still wore AT&SF passenger uniforms, and they were older guys like you see in so many photos of passenger crews.  

I knew Jack Green. He was from Florence. That's where his seniority was. He came up with a bunch uof rules to keep Savannah men off the orange blossom when it was first introduced. The main one was you had to be qualified on every job on the Florence board, and they had about 50 outlieing jobs. Switchers and locals in Charleston, Columbia, and god only knows where else. It worked until an id pool was established to Jacksonville and the general chairman got involved.



Sam
 

Sam, I'm sorry to hear RFE Green pulled that tactic on you and the Savannah men.  On my second railroad, I spent 37 years as local chairman and regional vice general chairman fighting those that tried to pull BS moves like that.