Eastern Railroad Discussion > NS EMD SD70M-2s and Air Start

To my pleasant surprise, I spent a solid week on the UPRR running nothing but SD70ACes and ES44AC GEVOs (I like them both very much, along with my beloved SD70Ms), punctuated in the middle by a very nice Norfolk Southern SD70M-2, the NS 2665. It was a very good unit, and varied from the UP units in having one, rather than two computer screens (the area for the left-hand screen had an additional "vertical" trainorder clipboard, in addition to the horizontal one on the minidesk). Unlike the Montana Rail Link SD70ACEs, which also have but one computer screen, there were no analog air guages atop the AAR control stand. Seems to be a lot of variety out there regarding this--but--to me, they are all nice.

What I did notice, I have read here on TO that ALL EMD SD70ACes and SD70M-2s have air start. This was evident on the UPRR SD70ACes, with the distinctive sound of the air start (which was not as loud as some have suggested), but it was obvious. The NS SD70M-2, however, lacked the large decal on the rear wall about the air start procedures, and, when cranking after an auto stop, sounded JUST LIKE a late model SD70M with auto start/stop--it sounded like it had an electric starter on it.

If somebody gives me hard proof that the NS SD70M-2s have air start--OK--I'll believe it--but my ears told me that the NS 2665 did NOT have air start. But, my deadened hoghead ears might have been deceiving me--LOL!!!

As for rating the SD70M-2, I posted a thread on this Eastern Board awhile back asking for NS hogger experiences about them. Having had one myself, with a good ole UPRR 3300-Class SD40-2R Snoot rebuild with air conditioning added in the trail--a nice set of a new EMD and reconditioned EMD in trail, I rate the NS SD70M-2 with the grade of A+ in big, bold, red ink. A very smooth-riding, good-pulling unit quieter on the inside than a straight SD70M, louder of course than an EMD unit with the isolated "Whisper Cab", with the melodious, spine-tingling Nathan K5LLA five-chime air horn. Everything worked perfectly. I like the UPRR's SD70ACes, but found the SD70M-2 to be just as good as an SD70M--I liked it. Good trip on a good unit.

All the new Tier Two units--both EMD and GE have had "teething troubles"--as is generally the case with ALL new models. I think these bugs are slowly being worked out--I didn't have the first glitch with the NS 2665.

But lets settle it: I'm going to have to have some kind of PROOF that this unit had air start. Not just a blanket statement that "all SD70ACes/SD70M-2s have air start." If somebody that works for EMD, or, somebody from NS Mechanical says "The NS 2665, and all NS SD70M-2s have air start--OK--I'll believe it, and blame my ears for my opinion." :-) Otherwise, I'm going to have to draw the conclusion that the SD70ACe/SD70M-2 line has air start as standard equipment, but that electric start is an option, and an option that the Norfolk Southern chose to select with its SD70M-2 order, or, at least SOME of its SD70M-2s.

At any rate, this hogger had a good week with the best power EMD and GE has to offer. I'm impressed. To complete my "Tier Two Indoctrination", I now need to sample the NS ES40DC and CSX ES44DC, to compare with the UPRR's excellent GE ES44AC GEVOs.

I'm an EMD man through and through, but I do have to say: as far as I'm concerned, at least with regards to a direct comparision between the UPRR SD70ACe vs. ES44AC (C45ACCTE), I have to say that those are in a dead tie--two excellent locomotive models with both builders putting their best foot forward. The only area where GE has EMD beat fair and square is the fact that GE continues to provide the reading light above the minidesk for soft illumination of train orders, while EMD inexplicably lacks this feature. If any EMD employees read this stuff: PUT THE READING LIGHTS BACK IN THE SD70ACes and SD70M-2s!!! Very important for night time running!!!

Does air start mean a compressed air motor takes the place of the normal electric starting motors (usually a pair, no?) or do they do something with feeding air to one or more engine cylinders as was done on very early diesels? I presume the former but you never know.

The NS SD70M-2 units are equipped with an Ingersoll-Rand air starter, which is the standard used on the EMD SD70ACe and SD70M-2 locomotives.


Chris Toth
NSDash9.com

filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does air start mean a compressed air motor takes
> the place of the normal electric starting motors
> (usually a pair, no?) or do they do something with
> feeding air to one or more engine cylinders as was
> done on very early diesels? I presume the former
> but you never know.

You presume correctly.

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At any rate, this hogger had a good week with the
> best power EMD and GE has to offer. I'm
> impressed. To complete my "Tier Two
> Indoctrination", I now need to sample the NS
> ES40DC and CSX ES44DC, to compare with the UPRR's
> excellent GE ES44AC GEVOs.

The ES44AC's are slow to load, slower then the AC4400's and AC6000's (if that was possible). Makes starting a train easy very difficult because of the slow loading and then incredible power of the train. It loads too much in 1 notch, but if you put it back to idle, you'll be stopped by the time it starts loading again. If you use the independent to control your speed when starting, the ERAD can ding you for excessive brake cylinder pressure under power.

Oh, and whatever electrical engineering moron decided to put the alerter acknowledger and the cab signal acknowledger on the same button should be smacked. Everytime you use the acknowledger to reset the alerter, the cab signals beep. It would be nice to either have a new button, or have the cab signals 'shut up' when they are cut out on 95% of the CSX territory.

The ergonomics on the GE control could use some correcting. It feels as though the brake handles are WAY behind you. Also the headlight switches are difficult to reach below the brake handles. You have the climate control switch, rear headlite, and front headlite switches all next to each other. You reach down to dim your front headlight, and the first switch you come to is the rear headlight switch.

All in all, a nice locomotive though, but the control stand could be better. Then again, I don't mind the desktop control stand.

As a note, I didn't like the UP SD70ACe's automatic brake valve. It was too easy to hit with your hip if you got out of the seat to use the toilet. I've seen a plate welded to some control stands to protect the automatic brake valve from being hit as you move past it, but the locomotive I was on didn't have it. It surely needed it. I brushed against it, and ended up taking 1st service at 60 mph. Had to take 10 lbs and then kick it off. Ended up losing some speed because of this. Someone out there can figure out how much money was lost getting back up to speed, verses welding a $2 peice of steel onto the control stand.

If only the railroads or the manufacturers would consult with crews on how the cab should be set up, it would be a great product. You'd think the guys that spend hours in the cab would have SOME say in it.

Practice Safe CSX

CSX_CO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > At any rate, this hogger had a good week with
> the
> > best power EMD and GE has to offer. I'm
> > impressed. To complete my "Tier Two
> > Indoctrination", I now need to sample the NS
> > ES40DC and CSX ES44DC, to compare with the
> UPRR's
> > excellent GE ES44AC GEVOs.
>
> The ES44AC's are slow to load, slower then the
> AC4400's and AC6000's (if that was possible).
> Makes starting a train easy very difficult because
> of the slow loading and then incredible power of
> the train. It loads too much in 1 notch, but if
> you put it back to idle, you'll be stopped by the
> time it starts loading again. If you use the
> independent to control your speed when starting,
> the ERAD can ding you for excessive brake cylinder
> pressure under power.
>
> Oh, and whatever electrical engineering moron
> decided to put the alerter acknowledger and the
> cab signal acknowledger on the same button should
> be smacked. Everytime you use the acknowledger to
> reset the alerter, the cab signals beep. It would
> be nice to either have a new button, or have the
> cab signals 'shut up' when they are cut out on 95%
> of the CSX territory.
>
> The ergonomics on the GE control could use some
> correcting. It feels as though the brake handles
> are WAY behind you. Also the headlight switches
> are difficult to reach below the brake handles.
> You have the climate control switch, rear
> headlite, and front headlite switches all next to
> each other. You reach down to dim your front
> headlight, and the first switch you come to is the
> rear headlight switch.
>
> All in all, a nice locomotive though, but the
> control stand could be better. Then again, I
> don't mind the desktop control stand.
>
> As a note, I didn't like the UP SD70ACe's
> automatic brake valve. It was too easy to hit
> with your hip if you got out of the seat to use
> the toilet. I've seen a plate welded to some
> control stands to protect the automatic brake
> valve from being hit as you move past it, but the
> locomotive I was on didn't have it. It surely
> needed it. I brushed against it, and ended up
> taking 1st service at 60 mph. Had to take 10 lbs
> and then kick it off. Ended up losing some speed
> because of this. Someone out there can figure out
> how much money was lost getting back up to speed,
> verses welding a $2 peice of steel onto the
> control stand.
>
> If only the railroads or the manufacturers would
> consult with crews on how the cab should be set
> up, it would be a great product. You'd think the
> guys that spend hours in the cab would have SOME
> say in it.
>
> Practice Safe CSX


Yes--I've heard that CSX has been having slow-loading problems with their DC-motored ES44DCs, and, that there have been issues with their making track speed that lower-horsepower C40-8s and such wouldn't have a problem with on the same train. Undoubtedly a software issue.

Amazing how GE got it so right with the AC-variant, but not with the DC (my surprise with the ES44AC, with AC motors, is that it is one of the fastest-loading GEs ever).

As for the brake valves, yes, a guard would be good. The UP-style seats make it a little easier--I've just learned that you have to unlock the seat, allowing it to swivel--and that solves the problem of bumping into that brake valve. Then, when I sit back down, I lock it back into the non-swiveling position.

Like you--I have no problem with the desktop controls, either, having "grown up" on both types. Aside from that minor issue with the brake valve and the armrest of the seat being in your way getting up (with the solution being as I described above), I am glad that GE and EMD have returned to the AAR control stand combined with a minidesk. There seems to be some difference of opinion on this. Some, like me, love the new arrangement, while others don't.

Many have said "Why can't the AAR control stand be angled as it was on the SD40-2 or C40-8, or what have you?" This arrangment didn't have the issue of the brake valve being in the way. About all that I can figure out is that perhaps if it was so angled, the control stand would protrude into the center walkway in the North American Cab? I'm not sure--just speculating.

As for me--if I just had my reading light back on the EMDs--I'd be as happy as a pig in slop. ;-)

Red,

I enjoy your frequent contributions to TO as an engineer & your opinions on the motive power.
So keep the posts coming.

I enjoy operating the NS SD70Ms & SD70M-2's as well & prefer them to the GE products.
However, my three biggest gripes about the NS units are:
1) With one computer screen on the 70M-2s, the box that keeps popping up when you
center the reverser about the data meters, diagnostics, & other messages.
As you know, on UP's units of this type with two screens, one of them is
designated for this information. It's just unnecessary to have to clear
this box each & every time you center the reverser and subsequently want to
do something simple like operate the counter.
2) You can't shut off the bell manually when it comes on during a horn blowing sequence;
it has to ring for 30 -45 sec.
3) No reading light for the engineer. (Amen!)

One other thing I don't understand is why they re-arranged the electrical cabinet on the
SD70M-2's & located half the breakers to the "electrical room" out on the long hood
behind the engineer's side. Even the breaker for the cab heaters is in there & I'm
sure this winter, many a hogger won't know to look out there when the slider switches
on the interior panel don't yield any heat.

One other thing EMD can't get right is the counter operation. GE has had it figured out
for a long time & EMD should take notice. EMD's has too many buttons to push to
count up & reset.

I wish the 70M's & 70M-2's were quieter. As you stated, the technology is there and though
the whisper (whistler) cabs may have their rocking problems attributable to sorry
maintenance, they sure are (in my opinion) the quietest units around.

As for the latest offerings from GE on NS, one thing I dislike about our DC powered GEVOS
is they don't display amps, but rather tractive effort. Coming from an all DC railroad
I have to listen to attempt to figure out how much tractive effort = 300 or so amps in DB.
(For those that don't know, running is not only by the gages, or seat of your pants; what
you hear plays a role in it too.)

I dislike the location of the dynamic brake cut out switch to the computer screen on the GEVOS;
I prefer it on the backhead where it belongs so I can easily check the status of that
switch on a quick cab inspection / walk through rather than cycling through several
computer screen menus.

As for both builders, the relocation of the Dynamic Brake Grids / Blowers / Fans to the rear
provides for a quieter ride, but I find myself often opening the window to HEAR how the
dynamics are performing. It's not as obvious as it was when the roar (EMD) or the whine
(GE) was right outside the rear door.

Finally, here's some official NS propaganda they gave us about the Air Start System on the
SD70M-2's. Your ears are deceiving you... maybe too many rides in the old clunkers? :-)

[Edit already!] I failed to mention I do like the location of the start switch inside the cab
of the locomotive as both builders have done on our latest offerings. That's where that
swicth should have always been! No self respecting hogger wants to get black rain spewed
upon him while starting an engine on the walkway... or even be out in the rain! :-)

Also, referencing the GEVO post above, I had the exact opposite experience recently with our (NS)
DC flavored GEVOS: Notch one wouldn't even move the train, I felt I was lucky to get 100
amps out of the unit, while in notch two they seemed to take off faster than I wanted to
start out on a heavy train.

NS1

---

---

NS1:

Very interesting information that you supplied there. Per UPRR rules, AESS engines are only to be shut down in designated engine servicing facilities, or, upon instructions from a higher controllling authority. This should alleviate the problem, say, of a solid set of SD70M-2s/SD70ACes with air start being "stranded" without sufficient air pressure to start the engine.

I, too, was somewhat disconcerted with the fact that the bell continued to ring after blowing for a crossing even after I hit the "Bell Off" position on the Bell Lever--and rapidly discovered that you simply have to wait for the 35 to 40 second interval that you describe.

One thing that I did like is that unlike the latest model UPRRR SD70Ms (the older ones of course had the standard ammeter on the control stand giving a readout in amps), while the newer ones, the UP 5127--5231 Class SD70Ms with the notched nose (The Phase II SD70M nose) and the AAR control stand, very similar to that found in SD70ACes and SD70M-2s, display tractive effort in kilograms, just like an AC unit. I was surprised that the NS specified an AMPERAGE readout on the EMD "FIRE SCREEN", and, like this aspect, as I feel that the kilograms of tractive effort is more appropriate for determining the load status of an AC unit, while good old AMPS are more appropriate for DC-motored units. Thus, I feel that NS got it right when they specified an amperage readout for its DC-motored SD70M-2s as opposed to kilograms of tractive effort. Surprising that the ES40DCs are like the late-model UPRR SD70Ms in displaying kilograms of TE rather than amperage.

As for the age-honored maxim of 300 amps being the threshold "bunching amperage" when you start bunching a train in dynamic braking, after a good long time of "operating in the dark" as to what the appropriate setting is for "bunching up a train with an AC unit, or DC unit with the kilograms of tractive effort" (I'm surprised that it after over 10 years of AC-propulsion in mainline service--no pamphlets or any type of information has been put out to give locomotive engineers a working guide for the appropriate "bunching effort" in kilograms), I have finally found out from a variety of sources that 5000 kilograms of TE in dynamic braking is roughly equivalent to 300 amps of dynamic braking force on a unit that displays this measure, and, this DB effort in kilograms, displayed simply as "5", comes into play at approximately the same DB handle setting that you'd get on a DC-motored unit--in the vicinity of Notch 2-1/2 to 3--to provide 300 amps of DB effort on a DC motored unit with a good ole ammeter. So now I know--but it was by word of mouth and trial and error. You'd think that this, as I said, would have been put out in pamphlets. I wonder if they teach this now in engineer school? Recent graduates of the Engineer Training Program of ANY railroad--raise your hands!!! Is this now covered in class--as the 300 amp bunching maxim for DC units was preached in Engineer School when I went through it?

Finally--while the new EMD "FIRE Screens" are light years ahead of the horrid EMD screens that first came out on the oldest SD70MACs and SD9043ACs (many of these have since been upgraded to the newer arrangement through a simple software upgrade--Praise the Lord), I totally agree that the popups on the EMDs are irritating, whether you have one screen or two (and yes, they often pop up when you're in the middle of a distance counter countdown), and, the GE IFC Screens are still much more logically laid out than those on the EMDs--much more user-friendly, and, the GE Distance Counters are quite simply perfectly logical, while the EMD Distance Counters--they are drastically inferior to those on the GEs. So--while the EMD screens have evolved into a much more superior design than on older EMDs--and are actually quite similar in many respects to the GE screens, the irritating pop-ups are actually unnecessary 90 percent of the time, causing you to continually press the "EXIT SESSION" button, and, EMD needs to improve their Distance Counter display. And for the third time: BRING BACK THE ENGINEER's READING LIGHT!!!

Having said all that: I still prefer the EMDs, whether they are SD70ACes or SD70M-2s, but, feel that EMD and GE are basically "neck-and-neck" with regards to quality and desireability--and that's a good thing. It's not like the 1980s, where the SD40-2 was the Cadillac and the GE C30-7 was a distant second not even in the same league as the EMD SD40-2, and, that's a GOOD THING!!! You get a brand new GE or a brand new EMD--and you pretty much know that you're getting a good-quality unit, and as I said earlier, both builders seem to be putting their best foot forward. The sales figures indicate that the Class Ones like BOTH of them, and, most hoggers I know like both the new GEs and EMDs.

Red,

Next time you get one of those NS units, open the door on the right side of the long at the location the alternator bolts to the engine block and you will see the IR air starter motor.

Had a new BNSF ES44AC the other day, best AAR control stand in a wide cab yet, not perfect mind you, but the angle is right on.

Red,

Thanks for the comments. I too wondered if they were teaching the Klb tractive effort to amp equivelent in engineer's school these days.

On my last trip with an NS GEVO, I thought since they have so many buttons & screen options (from BOTH builders) these days, why not give us a button to let us decide whether we want to see amps or tractive effort on the computer displays?

Further, on the GEVOS, I haven't found a way to look at the locomotive monitor like they used to have on the Dash 9's for an amperage reading... all it seems to have is the "cute" outline of an engine & some useless data (to me) about motor/idle, water temp & oil pressure (I think.) But, the fireman's side of the GEVOS has that interesting trip monitor thinggy on their display.

NS1

I noticed another feature on the NS SD70M-2s that I like that I forgot to mention. The GE C40-9s have long had an electric handbrake switch inside the cab that I've always liked.

Seeing that the NS 2665 did not have this, I assumed that it had the standard wheel handbrake arrangement common to UP SD70Ms, SD70ACes, SD40-2s, and what have you. When I went back there, there it was, the standard handbrake wheel (this was at night). To my pleasant surprise, I found that there were some weather proofed buttons and lights. While the wheel is there, there is a button for setting and releasing the handbrake. I pushed the RELEASE button, and the wheel slowly started unwinding, until the RELEASE light lit up.

Now--while you do go outside to do this--you walk right by this location anyway to inspect trailing units. I thought about it, and realized that this is actually probably a superior arrangement to the "In Cab Hand Brake Button" for this reason: when those fail, you get down on the ground, and pull out a hand crank that is chained to the lead truck on the engineer's side. In the event of the failure of the electric brake on the NS SD70M-2, you stand right there where you are, push the MANUAL OPERATION button, and simply use the brake wheel as you would on any other unit equipped with a manual handbrake. Thus, I think this is a very convenient setup.

I like the new UP power. I have to say, when you compare older NS power (the worst locomotives ever built aside from steam engines from an ergonomic aspect--devoid of the "romance of steam"--LOL), the NS has made more ergonomic and safety improvements than any other railroad in the past 15 years or so. I appreciate this as a frequent operator of NS power, and if I were an NS employee, would be highly appreciative of this. The NS has come a long way from the antiquated unairconditioned long-hood forward locomotives with a "crap-in-a-bag" toilet to actually going above and beyond the 21st Century industry-standard for ergonomics and safety improvements. I'm forgetting now--I do not BELIEVE the SD70M-2 had a nose-door window. The new GEs do still get the nose-door window. That is the only thing that I'd change on NS power.

I like the way the UPRR has eliminated the nose-door window on all older North American Cab units, and, gets solid doors on all new units. Having a solid nose door, per UPRR policy, greatly enhances cab occupant safety in the event of meeting a semi--particularly a semi hauling haz-mat or flammable contents. Aesthetically, it gives the locomotives "cleaner", more attractive lines on the nose--but the important thing is that it is a very critical SAFETY FACTOR. I'm frankly surprised that RRs such as CSX and NS are still getting the nose doors (and I believe BNSF is still getting them, too). I believe the tragic fatality in the collision of the UP Centennial 6936 led to measures to increase nose door integrity--installing stronger collision posts in the E9s and Centennial, outright elimination of the nose door on the Es, and, making the door on the Centennial open outward, rather than inward, as on North American Cab units (having the door swing out, rather than in, effectively DOUBLES the collision integrity of the nose door).

Heck--I said a lot to say that I simply like the new electric handbrake arrangment on the new NS SD70M-2s!!! :-)

ns1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I too wondered if they
> were teaching the Klb tractive effort to amp
> equivelent in engineer's school these days.
>
> On my last trip with an NS GEVO, I thought since
> they have so many buttons & screen options (from
> BOTH builders) these days, why not give us a
> button to let us decide whether we want to see
> amps or tractive effort on the computer displays?
>
>
> Further, on the GEVOS, I haven't found a way to
> look at the locomotive monitor like they used to
> have on the Dash 9's for an amperage reading...
> all it seems to have is the "cute" outline of an
> engine & some useless data (to me) about
> motor/idle, water temp & oil pressure (I think.)
> But, the fireman's side of the GEVOS has that
> interesting trip monitor thinggy on their display.
>
>
> NS1

Yep...I ALWAYS kept one of the screens on the Locomotive Monitor setting on the older GE ACs. And, yep...the conductor now has that full screen, and NOT the hoghead. Inexplicable, isn't it??? :-(

The reason you are starting to see Kilopounds TE instead of Amps on the DC units is probably because of the new FRA regulation requiring Dynamic Brake Status Reporting of trailing units. When this device starts showing up on locos later this year, ALL tractive effort will be required to be in Klbs. DC or AC units.

By the way, the build spec for the 2665 calls out air start.

zz89my Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reason you are starting to see Kilopounds TE
> instead of Amps on the DC units is probably
> because of the new FRA regulation requiring
> Dynamic Brake Status Reporting of trailing units.
> When this device starts showing up on locos later
> this year, ALL tractive effort will be required to
> be in Klbs. DC or AC units.
>
> By the way, the build spec for the 2665 calls out
> air start.


Yes--I'd heard about a new FRA reg requiring a tractive effort reading in kilopounds, or kilograms (which is it?)--thus--this is why the UPRR SD70Ms built in late 2004 with the AAR control stands and FIRE Screens had it.

Thus--it was to my surprise that I found that this NS SD70M-2 was still using the amperage measurement.

I'm still wondering what this dynamic brake readout device for trailing units is going to consist of. An additional computer screen? A little box? What form will it take on older power such as SD40-2s, etc.? Anybody know? Further--is it simply going to show that the DBs are working on all trailing units, or, is it actually going to show how much force they are putting out? I can see this being done with ease on new power. But, if you've got a brand new SD70ACe leading 2 SD40-2Rs, or older C40-8s--this leads me to wonder what type of special equipment will have to be mounted on these older units?

It seems that the DC GEVOs are having more problems and the AC GEVOs are almost trouble free. I wonder if that has anything to do with the face that BNSF and UP have been getting only AC locos lately? I wonder if CSX will swing back to AC motored locos again? I believe that eventually NS and CN will get new AC locos at some point.