Eastern Railroad Discussion > [NJ, NY] Pilgrim Pipeline Prompts Pushback

Enjoy those NS 66z oil trains to Linden NJ while they're running. A pipeline designed to put those trains out of business is already in the surveying stage.

The Pilgrim Pipeline is designed to run from a rail transload terminal near Albany NY, where CSX and CP both have operations, south to Linden NJ where Phillips 66 has a huge refinery. Phillips currently receives crude via the aforementioned 66z trains and a barge service from Albany. It's about 140 miles overall.

The Newark Star-Ledger reports that residents in northern NJ and southern NY state have banded to oppose the pipeline. More importantly, they've also declined to allow landsmen and surveyors on their private property. This is important because the pipeline doesn't have eminent domain privileges yet. With eminent domain, you can be arrested for obstructing legitimate surveying. The Pilgrim has chosen to use mostly existing rights of way like power line easements, existing pipe easements, and the New York State Thruway. So at this stage they need to gain voluntary cooperation for other land access. Entering into eminent domain hearings would open all the messy corners of citizen democracy, hearings, etc.

The operator denies that its surveyors have pressured land owners to permit access. The Sierra Club and others disagree. Several towns, including Parsippany NJ, have undertaken to educate residents on what obligations and opportunities the owners have.

This project is still in its early stages, but it will be interesting to see what happens. It nicely conflates the arguments of
-oil along the Hudson River in dangerous barges
-oil along the Hudson River in dangerous rail tank cars
-growing need for oil by the huge Linden-Woodbridge etc refineries
-appetite for revenue by the NY State Thruway which may host some or much of the pipeline

I didn't see an online link to this story in the paper edition, but it may appear later today.

A few nights ago I saw an eastbound CSX train on the Alexandria Extension (near DC) with many TTX flatcars carrying 36? inch pipe, the kind I recognize as being used in underground pipelines. Could this be material being stockpiled for the Pilgrim Pipeline project?

railsunlimited Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few nights ago I saw an eastbound CSX train on
> the Alexandria Extension (near DC) with many TTX
> flatcars carrying 36? inch pipe, the kind I
> recognize as being used in underground pipelines.
> Could this be material being stockpiled for the
> Pilgrim Pipeline project?


Possibly, although it's very early in the process for that.

Many pipelines are being renewed with modern pipe, replacing much older pipe. In some cases, the pipe width and pressure is being increased. That gives you a lot of throughput for your investment, and usually doesn't require a major hearing cycle.

Thanks for the info.

I saw this article back in May:

http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/05/20/new-pipeline-proposal-draws-ire-of-environmentalists-in-nj-and-ny/

Environmentalists continue the "our way or the highway" mentality on all things dealing with fossil fuel, especially the movement of crude oil. I get the sense that the majority of the public is getting really tired of it.

I'm sure there are people living along the Hudson River who are scared to death a crude oil train is going to derail and blow up in their town...they might like the idea of a pipeline. But, no, the Sierra Club, NRDC, Forest Ethics. ect. will do everything in their power to stop it...it could become a tangled web of lawsuits.

And in the meantime people will splinter into at least three groups: 1) Stop all oil, 2) Stop the pipeline 3) Stop oil on the rails. Friends will be lost, and people will begin backstabbing each other on Facebook and other discussion boards...it's happened before.

Are there any existing petroleum pipelines along the Hudson River now??



Allen

I have always thought it interesting that many folks want to stop everyone else from using fuel, but its fine for them to us private jets and Air Force 1 to burn all the fuel they want to. Those folks will never be satisfied with anything but moving back to a primitive society.

Bruce

bradleymckay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the info.
>
> I saw this article back in May:
>
> http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/05/20/new-pi
> peline-proposal-draws-ire-of-environmentalists-in-
> nj-and-ny/
>
> Environmentalists continue the "our way or the
> highway" mentality on all things dealing with
> fossil fuel, especially the movement of crude oil.
> I get the sense that the majority of the public
> is getting really tired of it.
>
> I'm sure there are people living along the Hudson
> River who are scared to death a crude oil train is
> going to derail and blow up in their town...they
> might like the idea of a pipeline. But, no, the
> Sierra Club, NRDC, Forest Ethics. ect. will do
> everything in their power to stop it...it could
> become a tangled web of lawsuits.
>
> And in the meantime people will splinter into at
> least three groups: 1) Stop all oil, 2) Stop the
> pipeline 3) Stop oil on the rails. Friends will
> be lost, and people will begin backstabbing each
> other on Facebook and other discussion
> boards...it's happened before.
>
> Are there any existing petroleum pipelines along
> the Hudson River now??
>
>
>
> Allen

No.

Although there are several older crude pipes from the Gulf into the Linden NJ area.

The Millenium pipeline from Canada, which was supposed to deliver natural gas from Canada was blocked two years ago. There was an enormous outpouring of people whose opinions matter when the plans revealed it would go through Westchester County NY. There's a smaller natural gas pipe under the bed of the New York Central's Harlem line north of Wassaic.

Texas Eastern has successfully managed a pair of gas pipelines into the New York area with a pretty good safety record over several decades. The Durham Woods explosion in 1998 didn't kill anyone, but it destroyed an apartment complex, etc. TE is working on an expansion of one of those lines as part of the Energy East to New England project. That's part of a three pronged effort to bring much more natural gas into New England.

Large green pipes, eight or nine per 89 foot flat, have been moving on Q410 for quite some time. But not on every train. Q410 is a Waycross - Selkirk train, so the pipe originates from someplace served out of Waycross or the other points it picks up. CSX schedules are no longer available. And after I see them in DE Q410 I do believe goes right to Selkirk, so my preumption is they are going to someplace served out of Selkirk. Today Q409, Q410s opposite, had 14 empty pipe flats with the cradles for the pipe strapped to the cars. So I am really curious where the pipe originates and terminates.

Second, I'm surprised Phillp's thinks they need a pipeline and why barges are not enough. Large barges are very safe, and the captains and pilots know their waterways as well as railroaders know their rail lines. The Hudson River is not a busy waterway above New York City. I'm familiar with the Port of Albany oil terminal, as I had various involvement when Conrail ran the 84 car 'Tank-Train' of fuel oil back in the 80s and 90s. But is the oil now barged to Phillips coming out of a pipeline that terminates there, or from the oil trains that terminate there, or both. I loaned my pipeline map to a friend, and it is an old map.

tp117 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Large green pipes, eight or nine per 89 foot flat,
> have been moving on Q410 for quite some time. But
> not on every train. Q410 is a Waycross - Selkirk
> train, so the pipe originates from someplace
> served out of Waycross or the other points it
> picks up. CSX schedules are no longer available.
> And after I see them in DE Q410 I do believe goes
> right to Selkirk, so my preumption is they are
> going to someplace served out of Selkirk.

There are two major projects underway in the region. One is the Energy East project which will bring more natural gas into New England, with a boomerang shaped line connecting Canada, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, and the Marcellus fields.

The other project is a connection to and reversal of the natural gas pipeline from Louisiana to northeast Pennsylvania. That will flow Marcellus gas south toward the Gulf. Spectra Energy, Natural Fuel Gas, Irving, Chesapeake, etc all have pieces of these efforts.


>Today
> Q409, Q410s opposite, had 14 empty pipe flats with
> the cradles for the pipe strapped to the cars. So
> I am really curious where the pipe originates and
> terminates.
>
> Second, I'm surprised Phillp's thinks they need a
> pipeline and why barges are not enough. Large
> barges are very safe, and the captains and pilots
> know their waterways as well as railroaders know
> their rail lines. The Hudson River is not a busy
> waterway above New York City. I'm familiar with
> the Port of Albany oil terminal, as I had various
> involvement when Conrail ran the 84 car
> 'Tank-Train' of fuel oil back in the 80s and 90s.
> But is the oil now barged to Phillips coming out
> of a pipeline that terminates there, or from the
> oil trains that terminate there, or both. I loaned
> my pipeline map to a friend, and it is an old map.

The barges seem to be working pretty well, but they've become a particular bane of Robert Kennedy and the River Keeper group. The barges directly serve the CSX and CP rail transload facility in Albany, and serve the Phillips dock in Linden, by the Goethals bridge.

The Pilgrim pipe would be a new, inland project, but it would traverse much of the NYC Catskill water reserve, which is its own set of issues. Governor Cuomo issued his own order excepting the area from any frac drilling etc.

Help me understand how this would eliminate NS trains 66z when the pipe line facility is served by CP & CSX. Wouldn't NS continue serve Phillips, what am I missing.

I have personally met the backers of the Pilgrim Pipeline when they made a presentation to a small group of officials in Northern NJ. They come across as decent people and know their industry well.

The oil pipeline is proposed to be less than 12" in diameter as far as I remember. The larger green pipe discussed above is used for natural gas lines and with the boon of fracking in PA that gas needs to be brought to market so there have been several new or enlarged lines being built in the northeast.

Back to the Pilgrim Project. The backers have been meeting with municipalities and counties all along the route. Some have been receptive, some not at all. The line is to parallel the New York State Thruway (perhaps within the right of way) and once near NJ run parallel to the Texas Eastern or Algonquin Gas natural gas lines that have been in place for 40 or more years. The pipeline will require several pumping stations, (3 or 4) as proposed. Wish I had my notes on it but they are at work.

The line is being privately funded. It will be possible to reverse the flow from NJ toward Albany if needed. They state the need for the line as it would be available at all times. No need to wait for barges many of which are being adapted for this use or are reaching the end of their useful lives. No winter ice to be concerned with. No double or triple handling of the crude. Currently it is pumped from train to tank, to barge, to tank, to refinery. The pipeline would allow a direct connection from the train to tank, to pipeline, to refinery.

One thing that has not been mentioned would be an expansion of rail car unloading facilities needed in the Albany area. With a pipeline offering a nearly continual flow more trains could be unloaded. I don't know if the facilities currently in the Albany area are large enough.

Cv the civil e in NJ

pal77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Help me understand how this would eliminate NS
> trains 66z when the pipe line facility is served
> by CP & CSX. Wouldn't NS continue serve Phillips,
> what am I missing.

Phillips would have its choice of taking oil by pipeline (CSX etc plus the pipeline) or by NS 66z. Both would end up in the same neighborhood.

I don't have a good sense of the cost differences, but I generally apply $12-$14 a barrel by rail to NJ, and would estimate maybe $9-$12 by pipe and CSX via Albany. I've heard the barge plus CSX is $11. Don't know that for sure.

VERY interesting!. I know about as much about pipelines as I do women, even tho I'm married. I've tried to get the wife to find me books on pipelines when she goes to the library, but none are there, and I'm not good at web searches, too old. I'm surprised those big green pipes I see on Q410 are for gas, and smaller would be for crude. I thought the opposite would be true; thick steel pipe for gas and large pipe for crude oil. From what I remember, the Alaska Valdez pipeline is quite fat, and it is for crude oil.