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Eastern Railroad Discussion > CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX


Date: 01/17/17 08:29
CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: TrainCatcher

Per a reliable source CSX Q165/CP 143 and CSX Q166/CP142 will no longer be running via the CSX as of 1/16/17.  Not sure of the reason(s) why?  Most likely late/unreliable delivery.  The trains will run Bensenville - Detroit via the NS (Butler connection) Chicago line as they did before CSX got the business.

Here are 3 shots of the eastbound mostly intermodal train Q166 from the past:

Q166-13 with CP' 9714 (Christmas lights attached) & 8819 at Concord, IN on 7/13/16.
Q166-18 stopped at Avilla, IN waiting on an outbound crew to be ready before moving into Garrett with CP' 8806 & 9603 n 9/18/16.
Q166-01 at Auburn, Indiana on New Year's Day 2017 with CP' 8779 & 9602.

I will sure miss these trains on the CSX but hope to catch them on the NS Chicago Line.

FDF








Date: 01/17/17 08:54
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: cornerfieldhobby

Now that's sad. It kind of doesn't surprise me as Q165 and Q166 had to go through north central Ohio through Fostoria and head along the Lake Shore east of Cleveland into Buffalo. So yes it doesn't surprise me as they found a faster timing route. 



Date: 01/17/17 09:09
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: farmer

It was more of a money decision than service.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/17/17 09:41
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: toledopatch

It was my understanding that CP moved these trains onto CSX (via Willard) a few years ago for two primary reasons: firstly, oil traffic was booming at the time and they were limited in the number of trackage-rights trains they could run over the NS between Detroit and Chicago, and secondly that avoiding the Detroit River tunnel allowed them to add blocks of full-cube container stacks to the trains. The trackage-rights operating limit is probably no longer a factor, and based on what the trains looked like, the full-cube stack traffic apparently wasn't enough to justify keeping the CSX handling.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/17 09:53 by toledopatch.



Date: 01/17/17 09:51
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: Englewood

rantoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are these the CP trains that get on CSX at Porter
> Indiana?

It has been many years since the CP trains used the old PM through Michigan.
Prior to Q165/Q166 moving to the CSX ex B&O (about 4 years ago) they used the NS
from Rock Island Jct. to Butler to Detroit just like all the other CP trains.  The CP symbols
then were 142 and 143.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/17 09:52 by Englewood.



Date: 01/17/17 09:53
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: espeefan

First the coal trains to Monroe, Mi. now this! More work lost! That's nice!

Posted from Android



Date: 01/17/17 11:57
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: zchcsse

espeefan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First the coal trains to Monroe, Mi. now this!
> More work lost! That's nice!
>
> Posted from Android

Have those coal trains already switched over, or will that occur later this year?

-Tom



Date: 01/17/17 13:48
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: farmer

zchcsse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> espeefan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > First the coal trains to Monroe,

Mi. now this!
> > More work lost! That's nice!
> >
> > Posted from Android

>
> Have those coal trains already switched over, or
> will that occur later this year?


>
> -Tom


Took effect Jan 1 2017 and has begun.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/18/17 04:28
Re: CP Trains Q165/Q166 No Longer Running on CSX
Author: kgmontreal

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was my understanding that CP moved these trains
> onto CSX (via Willard) a few years ago for two
> primary reasons: firstly, oil traffic was booming
> at the time and they were limited in the number of
> trackage-rights trains they could run over the NS
> between Detroit and Chicago, and secondly that
> avoiding the Detroit River tunnel allowed them to
> add blocks of full-cube container stacks to the
> trains. The trackage-rights operating limit is
> probably no longer a factor, and based on what the
> trains looked like, the full-cube stack traffic
> apparently wasn't enough to justify keeping the
> CSX handling.

Your second point is the one I understood at the time.  The Detroit tunnel did not accept double 9'6" stacks.  Prior to the arrival of EHH there was a plan to improve the Detriot tunnel clearances or twin it with a new tunnel.  I believe Harrison wouldn't consider the expenditure and  he demanded that they find a route with better clearances.  The bridge at Fort Erie apparently had the correct height clearance.  I say apparently because the clearance was tighter than expected and trains had to crawl over the bridge in order to prevent the containers' top corners from hitting the steelwork.

The route from Montreal/Toronto to Chicago via Fort Erie and the CSX was longer and much slower than the route via Detroit.  But no one at CPR dared argue with Harrison.  Leaving Toronto the train had to climb the Niagara Escarpment then descend it again toward Hamilton, go through the Welland tunnel and meander to Fort Erie.  In the reverse direction pushers were needed from Hamilton up the escarpment.  The route was slow and wasteful.

While the fans would prefer to see CPR power going through Willard, Fostoria etc, returning to the Detroit route at least has the possibility of recovering some of CPR's lost container traffic from the Port of Montreal.  In recent years CN has taken over much of the westbound traffic of import containers from Montreal.  CN used to take only a handful of boxes off the harbour here now they are the major player.  CPR used to originate three to four container trains per day from Montreal to Detroit and Chicago now it's a single train that may not run daily and is filled out with regular freight.

CPR's Montreal-Toronto mainline sees, on average, only four freights each way per day and frequently one or more of these is cancelled.  This includes both intermodal and general freight trains.  There are occasional ethanol trains but no more crude.  CPR's crew change point at Smiths Falls is decimated.  Train crews with fifteen years seniority can't hold a regular job there.  In Montreal CPR is giving away their AMT commuter jobs to Bombardier effective this June.  There are only four freight jobs left in St Luc.  Not four per shift, four total.  The D&H freights run only three times a week and with American crews.  Montreal, once the company's headquarters, is at the end of the line in more ways than one.

Under Harrison and Creel CPR has shed all sorts of traffic that they do not consider has a high enough profit margin.  They don't want import containers, finished autos, auto parts, time sensitive traffic or grain.  With those sources excluded there isn't much left.  And yet the stock price stays high.  There must be some very "clever" accounting taking place.

Ken Goslett
>  



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