Eastern Railroad Discussion > Does NS have as many pull aparts as CSX?

Since EHH took over, I have logged nine instances (8 on the former RF&P and ACL) of monster freights that went into emergency and delayed multiple Amtrak trains at least an hour (most 3 Hrs Plus). All the offenders were merchandise or intermodal. Am thinking that none of these trains had DPUs.
Is NS using DPUs on intermodals/merchandise? Does NS have as many incidents where a drawbar/knuckle has been broken?
Andy

Andy-You should be able to answer your own question.

twropr Wrote:
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> Since EHH took over, I have logged nine instances
> (8 on the former RF&P and ACL) of monster freights
> that went into emergency and delayed multiple
> Amtrak trains at least an hour (most 3 Hrs Plus).
> All the offenders were merchandise or intermodal.
> Am thinking that none of these trains had DPUs.
> Is NS using DPUs on intermodals/merchandise? Does
> NS have as many incidents where a drawbar/knuckle
> has been broken?
> Andy


Broken knuckles happen all the time, HH or no HH.

And for that matter, the A-Line has has 200+ car merchandise trains well before HH showed up.

Operationally, if you have a 3 units up front train, it wouldn't seem to be too difficult to make it a 2+ train+ 1 unit. Same amount of power, just distributed differently.

Never hear of one on NS’s Piedmont Charlotte Division or Georgia North End on the old Southern Main Line around Greenville SC and we got hills and 200 car trains.

I have seen rear end power on the southern Danville district. Also out of Roanoke heading east to Hurt Va then south. Also Roanoke south on pumpkin vine

Gary

Posted from iPhone

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Operationally, if you have a 3 units up front
> train, it wouldn't seem to be too difficult to
> make it a 2+ train+ 1 unit. Same amount of power,
> just distributed differently.


The logistics of distributing that power make for a BIG headache, promise.

I think, at least a partial answer, of why CSX does not use DPU's on merchandise trains is that so many trains work so many locations withn a short distance. This is due in part to the distribution of traffic on the system and EHH's philosophy. In the west trains are put together and run hundreds of miles between terminals. They also deal with steeper grades and much higher altitudes which reduces loco HP and brake line pressure. DPU's help solve some of that. The summit of Sherman Hill on UP is 8000feet, and BNSF on the Arizona Divide 7000 feet as well as Palmer Lake on the Joint line. MRL and BNSF passes are around 5000 feet; and maybe CP near Banff. I'm using general numbers without research. EHH's railroads were very easy to manage compared to CSX/NS. I've pointed this out several times in past emails, as have many others. I think DPU's are great if CSX can muster a large train of any type that can go 500 or more miles without stopping.

it's not as easy as just slapping an engine in the middle of the train and away we go. Not only do you have to deal with the logistics of putting the locomotive in the right spot, but the crews will have to be trained on operating mid train slave units, too.

Location of the DPU's is also important so that you are not shoving too hard on empties right ahead of the DPU. Hills, curves and maybe a little bit of less than quality track can produce disaster. As KCS learned decades ago, they were shoving unstable cars off unstable track at an alarming rate.

WrongMain Wrote:
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> it's not as easy as just slapping an engine in the
> middle of the train and away we go. Not only do
> you have to deal with the logistics of putting the
> locomotive in the right spot, but the crews will
> have to be trained on operating mid train slave
> units, too.

Understood. You and dfbalco make excellent points.

But, if they made the decision to run 15,000 foot trains, every coupler becomes a point of cat failure. It sounds simplistic, but adding crew training, reviewing train handling rules with DPU, etc comes with the paycheck.

Mike Ward found that out when CSX began running monster coal trains. And they spilled all over the place.

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> WrongMain Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > it's not as easy as just slapping an engine in
> the
> > middle of the train and away we go. Not only
> do
> > you have to deal with the logistics of putting
> the
> > locomotive in the right spot, but the crews
> will
> > have to be trained on operating mid train slave
> > units, too.
>
> Understood. You and dfbalco make excellent points.
>
>
> But, if they made the decision to run 15,000 foot
> trains, every coupler becomes a point of cat
> failure. It sounds simplistic, but adding crew
> training, reviewing train handling rules with DPU,
> etc comes with the paycheck.
>
> Mike Ward found that out when CSX began running
> monster coal trains. And they spilled all over the
> place.
>
> Posted from Android


A) Again, CSX has been running 200+ car merchandise trains (at least on the A-Line) since WAY before HH.

B) The issue with the monster coal trains had more to do with the hill between Fulton Yard and Acca Yard in Richmond than being huge specifically. They're doing them again these days but in a different way and it's working better.

Totallamer Wrote:
----------------------------------
> B) The issue with the monster coal trains had more
> to do with the hill between Fulton Yard and Acca
> Yard in Richmond than being huge specifically.
> They're doing them again these days but in a
> different way and it's working better.

Just curious, what did they change? Do they seperate back into two trains at Fulton before sending one or both up the hill? I wonder whose idea it was to run 200+ loaded cars up that short twisty hill in the first place...

So, CSX identified that they have a problem, and took steps to fix it. Change the way trains are put together, etc.

That sounds good.

inCHI Wrote:
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> Totallamer Wrote:
> ----------------------------------
> > B) The issue with the monster coal trains had
> more
> > to do with the hill between Fulton Yard and
> Acca
> > Yard in Richmond than being huge specifically.
> > They're doing them again these days but in a
> > different way and it's working better.
>
> Just curious, what did they change? Do they
> seperate back into two trains at Fulton before
> sending one or both up the hill? I wonder whose
> idea it was to run 200+ loaded cars up that short
> twisty hill in the first place...


Okay so, here's the series of events.

Pre-HH, they wanted to run "double-barrel" coal trains from Richmond south. These are big beasts, 220 cars, 31,000 tons. Now once you hit the A-Line it's not AS much of an issue... I mean it's still a big beast, but the A-Line is (relatively) straight and (relatively) flat. It's getting from Fulton TO the A-Line that's the issue.

So the way they were doing it in the M. Ward days was the train would come into Fulton from Clifton already doubled. Now at that point it's clearly facing the wrong way to go to Acca and around the wye to head south! So the train would be broken in up the yard at Fulton and a Seaboard outbound crew would be called. The inbound would have run around the train. One track had the head end power + head end of the train. Another track had the back of the train. So the Seaboard crew would double it out and the Fulton pushers would hop on the rear. Well at this point the train stands as such...

Head end power -> 220 cars of coal -> pushers

Okay, but the pushers don't really have the grunt to keep 220 cars of slack pushed in going up that hill, even after they put out a bulletin increasing the maximum powered axles in pusher service to 18 (2 AC44s or ES44AHs, in other words). So the trains would keep coming apart on the hill to Acca, which is then a giant pain to put back together. Countless handbrakes, etc.

So the next idea is DP. At first they seem to think having the DP on the rear will work (spoiler: it won't). Same as before except the RFE is there when the Seaboard outbound crew is called to show the Engineer how to link up the head end to the DP power. So you double the train out then double over to the DP power. But again, a bunch of issues coming apart on the grade.

Then they figure out it's a heck of a lot better to put the DP in the MIDDLE! Genius. So same deal as before. Works better, but still having some issues on the hill, stalling and having to send the pushers out to get on the rear and shove or pulling knuckles, etc. I mean things WERE better this way but at this point I think they kind of decided it was more trouble than its worth and stopped. It did take a TON of time (and just bad logistically) breaking the train up at Fulton and then doubling it back together. Hours and hours lost.

Time passes. Things are back to normal, single-barrel coal and grain. HH shows up. No change in that regard for a long time. But then I guess someone had a new plan and decided to try and go for a BIG bonus this year!

So here's the new plan. Train won't be broken up at Fulton! It'll come from Clifton pre-DP'd, with power on the head and in the middle. Train'll pull down the main at Fulton and the Seaboard crew will swap out with the inbound at Darbytown. Then the pushers will tag onto the rear at R Cabin and drag the train high of AM Junction to drop down the Bellwood sub. This allows them to not have to bring the whole train all the way up the hill. Just partway. Here's the catch. If you cut out the automatic brake on a DP powered train, it puts the train in suppression! And when the pushers couple up on the rear to drag the train back, they're essentially becoming the head of the train, thus they need to be in control of the air and the "rear" has to cut theirs out. But you can't do it due to DP! Before the rules stated you could only do it this way for a mile at most. The rules were amended for this specific circumstance to make it legal.

But it's honestly worked relatively well so far. The Bellwood is more challenging terrain for the ~11 miles or so you have to run it before you hit the A-Line, but in all honesty a double-barrel train with DP in the middle runs better than a single-barrel train with head end power only. You'll crest hills a couple mph faster than you would with the regular sized train.