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Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour TrainsDate: 02/01/25 11:02 CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: WMF7A For those who care, the very first CSX detour train 372 just got the railroad to proceed Eastbound from Cherry Run to Hagerstown at 13:59 today. Sounds like a crew change at either Antietam Street or Town interlocking.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/25 11:04 by WMF7A. Date: 02/01/25 11:41 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: GCT2526 M371 with the 74-3304 and 99 cars passed Swedeland, PA at 1356 today.
Date: 02/01/25 12:35 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: globalethanol This should be a good chance to get a big eastbound on Williamsport hill while they're detouring.
twl Posted from Android Date: 02/01/25 12:49 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: ClubCar Yesterday, I stated on here that the former Western Maryland Railway Line that is owned by CSX is underutilized. I'm surprised that no one has made any comments about my story in that some of the CSX freight trains coming into or out of Baltimore could surely use this line. I have been told by people who are in the know that this line only sees one or two trains per day on this route between Baltimore and the Hanover, Pennsylvania area. The York Railway Company, formed by the merger of the former Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad and Yorkrail, is a shortline that connects with CSX (former WM) at Porters and Hanover, Pennsylvania. They in turn also connect with Norfolk Southern which means that a through CSX train coming from Baltimore could go up the former WM, then use the York Railway Company line to get to Norfolk Southern to go east to Philadelphia and points north. Otherwise, the CSX trains would then have to go on to Hagerstown, Maryland to connect with Norfolk Southern. I don't know anything about the York Railway Company, but I would think that CSX would try to work out a deal to have trackage rights over their line as this surely is a much more direct route than to go all the way out to Cherry Run to get into Hagerstown. Does anyone know and understand my thoughts? Thanks.
John in White Marsh, Maryland Date: 02/01/25 16:09 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: WM1977 Things to consider include: route speed, tonnage ratings for locomotives, number of train crews needed and availability to run a particular route ie CSX, York Rail, NS. I'm sure that any cars that are routed to go east from Baltimore are routed to Cumberland where they are placed on an eastbound to Hagerstown/Harrisburg. Unless things have changed any trains to or from the Hanover sub go to Curtis Bay or must make a backup move to get to the right place. Been about 10 years since I have been working in the Baltimore Terminal area. As you would say John the WM Hanover sub is not what it used to be.
CR Date: 02/01/25 16:20 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: DJ-12 ClubCar Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Yesterday, I stated on here that the former > Western Maryland Railway Line that is owned by CSX > is underutilized. I'm surprised that no one has > made any comments about my story in that some of > the CSX freight trains coming into or out of > Baltimore could surely use this line. I have > been told by people who are in the know that this > line only sees one or two trains per day on this > route between Baltimore and the Hanover, > Pennsylvania area. The York Railway Company, > formed by the merger of the former Maryland & > Pennsylvania Railroad and Yorkrail, is a shortline > that connects with CSX (former WM) at Porters and > Hanover, Pennsylvania. They in turn also connect > with Norfolk Southern which means that a through > CSX train coming from Baltimore could go up the > former WM, then use the York Railway Company line > to get to Norfolk Southern to go east to > Philadelphia and points north. Otherwise, the > CSX trains would then have to go on to Hagerstown, > Maryland to connect with Norfolk Southern. I > don't know anything about the York Railway > Company, but I would think that CSX would try to > work out a deal to have trackage rights over their > line as this surely is a much more direct route > than to go all the way out to Cherry Run to get > into Hagerstown. Does anyone know and understand > my thoughts? Thanks. > John in White Marsh, Maryland John, I will bite. But don't forget this is something that has been in the works for literally years and it's therefore been studied thoroughly from all angles by people who are paid to do this for a living who have a full slate of info to which we don't. That said, while creative, there are a whole host of likely reasons of why the route you propose is not viable: 1. The negotiated route is a well maintained route with signals and PTC along its length. I highly doubt the WM Hanover Sub has PTC and I'm pretty certain Yorkrail does not. That's a problem if you want to run hazmats, which given that they appear to be running manifest on the detours certainly is going to be the case. 2. The route you envision is a cobbled together route of what are at this point branch and secondar lines, and yes they don't have much traffic, but they DO have regular train operations that need to be accounted for. How many sidings do they have an how long are they? I'm willing to be the route you have proposed doesn't have a single siding long enough to meet between modern length freight trains. What happens when the Hanover Locals or the rock trains need to sit for hours in the clear for a detour? What happens if you need to meet two long detour trains? 3. The negotiated route requires coordination with only one carrier, NS. York Rail has a pretty good book of local business on its lines that they attend to every day. How would having to run multiple overhead trains a day impact serving those customers? Probably pretty negatively. 4. The negotiated detour route allows for a progressive move from Cumberland to Cherry Run on the B&O to the WM to Hagerstown to NS up the RDG through Harrisburg and on to Philly. Your route would require trains to get on the Port Road from the York Rail, transit through Enola, go over the very congested Rockville Bridge and though the highly congested Harrisburg Terminal fuel pad. That alone probably makes it DOA from an NS standpoint. 5. Speaking of NS, NS likely is only allowing them a small number of slots over its own lines. This was no doubt the result of a lengthy negotiation. Therefore it appears CSX is sending only the coal trains that need to access the Consol dock below Bayview and any Philly/Bayview manifest freight to/from Cumberland on the detour route. This makes sense as these trains make the progressive move described above. The coal is necessarily coming out of Cumberland and points west anyways and running a manifest train from their newly rebuilt yard at Cumberland makes lots of sense. This allows them to gather manifest traffic from all points around the compass at the natural gathering point of Cumberland that needs to end in Philly or Bayview onto one train pair to make the best use of the available slots. 6. For points "north of Philly", CSX has made use of DC-Cumberland-Pgh-Buffalo-Selkirk as a detour route for traffic between the southeast and Selkirk periodically for years when there are issues in Baltimore or on the Riverline (Derailment, trackwork, etc). It's not something new and running the trains this way is old hat. Even though its lots of extra miles it is all on their own network. Don't forget NS is likely limiting their slots and those slots are also likely very expensive. Philly-Chicago Intermodal traffic has been running via Selkirk for years and the Twin Oaks-midwest auto train pair has been running that way for at least a year, as have the Seagirt-Chicago Intermodal trains ever since the bridge disaster last year. For any manifest that needs to go from Selkirk to Curtis Bay, that is just going to go via Sand Patch to Cumberland and then on the regualr Curtis Bay trains. I know you dearly would love to see some more traffic on your treasured WM. Why don't you treat yourself and take a drive one day over to the WM somewhere between Hagersown and Cherry run and see if you can catch a detour somewhere like Williamsport Hill? One item I'm note sure how they are handling is the intermodal from the southeast and the UPS train from CHI-Baltimore. Can anyone confirm if CSXT is temporarily landing these at Curtis Bay? Interesting times for sure. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/25 16:23 by DJ-12. Date: 02/01/25 16:29 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: RFandPFan Are they running around the trains at Cherry Run?
Posted from iPhone Date: 02/01/25 17:22 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: DJ-12 RFandPFan Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Are they running around the trains at Cherry Run? > > Posted from iPhone No. Both train pairs (coal and 371/372) make a direct move from Cumberland to Hagerstown via Cherry Run. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/25 17:45 by DJ-12. Date: 02/01/25 17:30 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: bigsavage Greencastle,PA. cam times:M372 EB@ 16:56, M371 WB @ 19:05
may be WB coal empties later tonight... Date: 02/01/25 19:27 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: Gonut1 Club Car,
I read your previous comments, both today and earlier, with great interest. The rails are certainly there. But as DJ-12 has written in great detail reasons why they are not viable, I will only expand that this goes beyond the railroads, existing rail ROWs and the required PTC signalling, would involve all sorts of Labor Union agreements and that isn't likely to happen, especially involving Yorkrail a shortline. As the negotiated reroutes/detours will pass my home I can only hope I can pin down a few and maybe capture a few photos. Heads-up are few and far between these days. Club Car you and I are from an earlier time when such detours were able to made ad hoc, often "Gentlemen's Agreements" but this now, not then and these agreements just don't happen. Just look at the Amtrak debacles that occur when even just a loco breaks down. It all turns to crap! Gonut Date: 02/02/25 04:17 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: ClubCar Thank you to both DJ-12 and Gonut1 for responding and giving your excellent explanations as to why the former Western Maryland Railway cannot be used. I do understand, but like so many other things, these big railroads (Chessie now CSX) have made so many foolish mistakes in getting rid of various lines that they owned at one time. They just never consider the future, it's all for today, earn as much income now and don't worry about tomorrow ever. Very sad for sure.
John in White Marsh, Maryland Date: 02/02/25 06:04 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: WM_1109 But as WMF7A pointed out, the former WM is being used between Cherry Run and Hagerstown.
/Ted Date: 02/02/25 09:16 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: rbx551985 ClubCar Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you to both DJ-12 and Gonut1 for responding > and giving your excellent explanations as to why > the former Western Maryland Railway cannot be > used. I do understand, but like so many other > things, these big railroads (Chessie now CSX) have > made so many foolish mistakes in getting rid of > various lines that they owned at one time. They > just never consider the future, it's all for > today, earn as much income now and don't worry > about tomorrow ever. Very sad for sure. > John in White Marsh, Maryland Regarding the practice of "gettnig rid of lines without considering the future [needs]," there is one item that not many people may have heard about. This came about with Chessie System in the mid-1970's when they removed about 2/3 of the double track between Richmond and Newport News, Va. - what is now CSX's "Peninsula Subdivision." This was said, by those who where there and are now retired, due to Virginia's extremely high land-use tax,, and to this day the same holds for just about every home and business despite citizens' complaints about it. Chessie chose to remove most of that line's double track to keep from paying so much for land-use. The same people who related this said it made CSX's decision to remove lots of their A-Line double track south of Richmond in the 1980's. There are always reasons for decisions like those, and - YES, I agree - in the long run it makes operations more difficult. Then when issues occur (derailments, floods, hurricane damage, etc.) that dictate detours, anyone who knows "what was" and in many cases, like the WM line that "might have been a good detour" if things were different, finds dissappointment in what appears to be a potential route ignored. Think of what could have been done had the WM not have been abaondoned from Baltimore to Cumberland. And there are others on other railroads that many of us easily scratch our heads over. The decisions of the past, no matter their cause, often lead to this - and rightfully so. Perhaps no one's specifically there to blame, but it is worth considering . I am one of those who drives RailcrewXpress crew vans (for CSX) on I-70 by the old right-of-way between Cherry Run and Hancock, and always wish I could still see WM or CSX trains running on that line. Seeing the old pole lines but just tall trees around the hiking-biking traill that route now is always leaves me with a heavy sigh and thoughts of "What If." Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/25 09:17 by rbx551985. Date: 02/02/25 09:26 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: Lackawanna484 Companies are often faced with "nice to have" and "must have" decisions on rights of way, routes, plants, etc.
It can be tough decision to make, but high taxes, high operating costs etc often til the balance. Posted from Android Date: 02/02/25 14:56 Re: CSX Hagerstown Maryland Detour Trains Author: DJ-12 Lackawanna484 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Companies are often faced with "nice to have" and > "must have" decisions on rights of way, routes, > plants, etc. > > It can be tough decision to make, but high taxes, > high operating costs etc often til the balance. > > Posted from Android 100/100. Its easy to exercise hindsight and forget that in the late 70’s the rail industry was still hemorrhaging money and American industry was in a lengthy recession that took years to recover from. Staggers wasn’t enacted yet and Chessie was facing mine closures all over West Virginia, a collapsing steel industry in the rust belt and a resurgent Conrail that was quickly diverting traffic from its component roads in the northeast like the RDG, LV and CNJ that used to travel the WM/B&O to the midwest its own routes via the PRR and NYC instead. Intermodal was barely a boutique product and barely profitable. Hard choices had to be made. The B&O had double track and a larger, more modern hump yard in Cumberland that sat in a position to handle traffic in such a way that was obvious to everybody but Hunter Harrison 35 years after the fact. The WM was a classy underdog and easy to like, but there was only one obvious choice at the time. It’s easy to Monday morning quarterback everything 45 years after the fact. Posted from iPhone |