Model Railroading > HO scale MTH SD70ace question

Hi,everyone i was wondering if you had to do it over again would you buy the MTH ace or would you wait for Athearn's ace's.I see the non sound are out for $159.95 and i;m might go with MTH and skip Athearn.Thanks in advance for your advise Steve

I have 2 of the DCS versions that I converted to Tsunami's. If I had the opportunity I'd check out the MTH to see if the speaker mount is in place. If it is I'd put my own Tsunami in it. I like the drive train of MTH over the Athearn's and the detail is similar. The railings of the MTH are metal. The Athearn's are probably going to be plastic and fragile based on their past offerings.

I personally would not buy anything from MTH unless nobody else made the product.
I've always had a taste for Mike Wolf. But that's just me.
I did see the new South Shore "Little Joes" yesterday from MTH and they are nice.
I'm not crazy over the funky couplers, but there again I only use Kadee's.
cf7

I don't think the auto couplers are on the DCC ready version. I removed them and installed Kadee's on my DCS units.

I hear so many pro's and con's about MTH and the soon to be out Athearn ace's and just cant't make up my mind.Total i will buy about 5 - 7 and to me it's a big purchase i just want to get it right..

I would buy the MTH over Athearn in a heartbeat and KEEP the ProtoSound 3.0 system installed as I have with the 12 units I have in my current possession. I have 3 more units on order and nearly bought another one today at a train show. The Athearn model will be very nice but I'm sticking with MTH and will continue to stick with MTH. The automatic couplers on the sound ProtoSound 3.0 version are replaceable with Kadee couplers. I have done so on my units.

I have numerous Athearn models and I have nothing against Athearn or any of the major manufacturers. I just feel that the products MTH has released are quite a bit nicer than what the other manufacturers have produced. I hope MTH continues to produce HO models both steam and diesel as well as freight cars as I will continue to be a customer and buy these products.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

And, in a galaxy far away, maybe someone with an open mind will install DCS on their layout as their primary command control system, realizing that DCC, while the NMRA standard, pales in comparison.

Until you have put an MTH locomotive through its paces under DCS, no need to reply here. HO, O, or G scales; Internet FREE Upgrades, AC or DC - what ever you feed it, it will blow DCC away.

Bob

ATSF100WEST......Out

If I could I would certainly use DCS as my primary control system. It is far superior to DCC in every way. I do own a DCS system (the full wireless system) and it's flat out awesome in what you can do. I'm hoping that MTH eventually comes out with aftermarket DCS boards that can be installed in other manufacturer's locos as I would convert all of my locos to DCS and run with DCS.

Call me strange but it's how I feel based on what I know about both types of control systems having used DCC for 10+ years and DCS for the last year or so on my HO layout and for 4-5 years at a hobby store giving O gauge demos with it.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

A friend brought a MTH light USRA mike to my home and it took 22 cars up a curving 2% grade. Very impressive as was the sound, smoke, and lights and smooth running. Most plastic engines struggle to take 10 cars up my grade.

I was going to buy the DCC ready version from MTH for the Heritage units and buy the standard UP paint schemes from Athearn.

The are doing one heritage unit per run so that means another year goes by until the WP heritage will be released.

Hi, again the seller of the MTH ace's i saw have Katy,Mp and D&RGW

I've tried out the DCS Commander and Remote system and found them to be more toy like as far as features IMO.
I've been through the MTH website and I haven't found some of what I consider important features for use in both large home or club layouts.
My experience is with both Digitrax and NCE and both have no problem showing what they have.
Things like accessory/turnout controls that can be done from computer or throttle.
Others like computer control, JMRI decoder pro and panel pro which are both outstanding and free programs, numerous detection and signaling solutions as well as transponder optoins are something I don't see even mentioned in the MTH site.
When programming decoders the higher end DCC solutions offer numerous options that allow the user to set the loco's up practically any way they want.
When changing out my 2 SD70's to Tsunami's I found that the DCS also has polarity reversed compared to DCC requiring changes to the light boards, so even coming up with a drop in decoder for DCC units would be a challenge.
I guess the last but probably most important thing to consider is Competition. With DCC there are Several companies who compete for your business. This keeps pricing at bay and results in continuous new products as each tries to top the other. MTH has no competition and therefore in the HO world are more like the Betamax or HDTV. If it was so great for HO it would be used by more on that side.

Edit: I have since found the manual talking about the accessory decoder and other items for DCS. I find the capacities, and features are lacking and limited.
Is it true that they only offer a 10 output accessory decoder? No 1, 2, 4 output unit? http://www.protosound2.com/service.asp

Also this page suggests the wireless range is 50 feet. Is this a typo or is the range actually longer?

http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=50-1001

I have only tried the TIU and DCS remote. The wireless system basically. I think it does have a range of only 50 feet. Not really a problem though, I don't know of too many basements that are 50 feet in either direction. Maybe a few. Club layouts might have more of an issue with that range for sure. 50 feet is more than enough for me.

You can use DCS with a signal system as long as the signal control boards and the block occupancy detectors do not contact the track. I am using the Team Digital components which will allow me to use my signal system with both DCC and DCS. The Team Digital boards will interface directly to my computer running the CATS JMRI based software. No direct interaction between the computer and DCC or DCS system nor the track power. The Team Digital signal control board will operate turnouts directly from the computer or from a fascia panel.

Now you can't use DCS with automatic train control software. Those need DCC. I don't know of a whole lot of people doing this and if you are you probably don't want DCS anyway.

Transponding is actually done between the MTH DCS equipped loco and the DCS system. It's done seamlessly. Between the DCS engine and the DCC system no.

You can set an MTH DCS engine up in many different ways just like on DCC. There may be different options where DCS lacks some options that SOME DCC decoders provide and features that DCS has the DCC decoders don't have. The only thing that I have found that I can't do with DCS is configure the lighting. SD70ACe locomotives, other than maybe CSX and NS, don't have flashing ditch lights. I wish MTH would allow for this feature to be disabled. Maybe in the future.

Polarity reversal isn't a big deal, just reverse the motor wires. Done. If MTH set their boards up backwards, just hook the wire that in an MTH model goes to motor positive to motor negative in another brand. No biggie there. Changing to a DCC decoder just wire the orange wire to negative and the gray wire to positive. The lights will respond on DCC to the output they are connected to. If you connect the front headlights to F0 then decoder output F0 will activate them. Most decoders also allow you to re-map outputs to functions so you don't have to change the wiring.

Competition, well ya got me there. MTH's system is proprietary for now but I bet that someone will come out with something similar that does not infringe on MTH's patents. Just a matter of when not if.

I knew a guy a couple years ago working on a direct radio system where the handheld throttle talked directly to the decoder wirelessly, not through a command station first and then through the rails. This allows for an on board power source should someone choose to go that route. It was a really interesting idea that I thought would work well, I'm not really sure what happened to the guy or the project. He might not have hand enough funding to get the idea past the prototype stages. Anyway, competition for MTH will likely happen. DCC is getting to the point to where it is very antiquated and needs some major updates. There's technology out there that DCC could be taking advantage of and isn't.

Anyway good discussion. There's a lot of great products out there nowadays and us modelers are the winners with so many choices and so many great products being manufactured.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO







Hamltnblue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've tried out the DCS Commander and Remote system
> and found them to be more toy like as far as
> features IMO.
> I've been through the MTH website and I haven't
> found some of what I consider important features
> for use in both large home or club layouts.
> My experience is with both Digitrax and NCE and
> both have no problem showing what they have.
> Things like accessory/turnout controls that can be
> done from computer or throttle.
> Others like computer control, JMRI decoder pro and
> panel pro which are both outstanding and free
> programs, numerous detection and signaling
> solutions as well as transponder optoins are
> something I don't see even mentioned in the MTH
> site.
> When programming decoders the higher end DCC
> solutions offer numerous options that allow the
> user to set the loco's up practically any way they
> want.
> When changing out my 2 SD70's to Tsunami's I found
> that the DCS also has polarity reversed compared
> to DCC requiring changes to the light boards, so
> even coming up with a drop in decoder for DCC
> units would be a challenge.
> I guess the last but probably most important thing
> to consider is Competition. With DCC there are
> Several companies who compete for your business.
> This keeps pricing at bay and results in
> continuous new products as each tries to top the
> other. MTH has no competition and therefore in
> the HO world are more like the Betamax or HDTV. If
> it was so great for HO it would be used by more on
> that side.
>
> Edit: I have since found the manual talking about
> the accessory decoder and other items for DCS. I
> find the capacities, and features are lacking and
> limited.
> Is it true that they only offer a 10 output
> accessory decoder? No 1, 2, 4 output unit?
> http://www.protosound2.com/service.asp
>
> Also this page suggests the wireless range is 50
> feet. Is this a typo or is the range actually
> longer?
>
> http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=50-100
> 1

For a Home system I could see It being useful.
When I talked about transponding I was actually talking about the possibility of locating the loco or any car with a transponding decoder in the actual block it was operating in. with pc software you can actually see where it is.
The polarity reverse issue isn't just a swap of the leads. On the SD70 I had to etch the board and add a wire to isolate the ditchlights so that they would work correctly. The light board was similar.
As far as technology updates. DCC manufacturers have come up with some clever methods to expand the capability with indexing CV's and improved use of DSP processors. I see only good stuff ahead. Digitrax has finally waken up with the DT402D controller and has answered most of the complaints until now. NCE is neck and neck with similar features. MRC and I'm sure a few others are holding their own as well.

I guess to each his own but I do tend to chime in when the MTH marketing rep chimes in calling the DCS system Vastly Superior (or words to the effect) to DCC when it isn't even on par in many ways. The menu structure on their controllers are better for some but the overall product offering is way behind. Also the extra sound effects have been answered by companies like Soundtraxx, QSI and Broadway Limited. I find that many people don't use them after the initial ohhs and ahhs.

Hamltnblue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Please expound on the vast superiority of DCC as compared with the DCS functions listed here:

http://www.mthtrains.com/ho/ho-dcs

Bob

ATSF100WEST......Out


>
> I guess to each his own but I do tend to chime in
> when the MTH marketing rep chimes in calling the
> DCS system Vastly Superior (or words to the
> effect) to DCC when it isn't even on par in many
> ways. The menu structure on their controllers are
> better for some but the overall product offering
> is way behind. Also the extra sound effects have
> been answered by companies like Soundtraxx, QSI
> and Broadway Limited. I find that many people
> don't use them after the initial ohhs and ahhs.

They will all be out eventually w/o sound. The only ones now are UP 4141,1982,1988,1989

DCS is vastly superior to DCC.

Just surface observations make it superior from the get go. #1 being that I can put my loco on the DCS track and tell the system to find it. The system then displays a text description of the locomotive along with a number. I can see that I'm operating DRG_SD70ACe_#1989 as it shows it in text form. No program track, no CV's, no calculations.

One of the other surface features is that you get actual scale mph on the display not speed steps. Yes this is also due to the electric reader eye watching black and white stripes on the flywheel of MTH locomotives but what DCC throttle can turn that information into scale speed data and display it on the throttle? The most you can get with a "cam" or reader eye is synchronization of steam chuffs on DCC.

If I want to limit my SD70ACe to a top speed of 70 scale mph, all I have to do is set it in the throttle. No CV programming, no speed curves, no running the loco through a speedometer numerous times to get the CV setting just right, my DCS throttle just stops when 70 scale mph is reached. Yes I've tested this with my speedometer and it's spot on accurate.

MTH locomotives have numerous functions for lighting, sound effects, etc. When operated on DCC, there's 28, when operated on DCS, there's even more than you don't get on DCC. DCC decoders stop at 12 or 14. MRC is the only sound decoder to have 28 functions.

Just because people don't use the features also doesn't mean the DCS system isn't superior. Most people don't use all the features or capabilities of DCC either. The way MTH DCS is superior is in the interface. There are some things that are the same or similar with DCC and DCS but with DCS these tasks are easier. On a QSI decoder to change the horn volume you have to set CV 49 to 0 and then set CV 52 to 0-15 depending on the level you want. On DCS, you go into the menu, select sound, select horn volume and run the wheel up and down between 0% and 100%. When done click to set. Done. It's spelled out in words not numbers. The horn also automatically sounds while you're setting the volume so you'll know exactly where it will be set to while you're programming. To do that on DCC you have to turn the horn on prior to navigating to the CV program menu. Some DCC systems don't allow F2 to be latching so you have to program and then test and then re-program.

Features/functions are listed as words or acronyms not numbers and are on softkeys under the screen or are on buttons on the throttle. If I want to activate the engine idle sequence sound effect, I press the button for it. If I want the signal forward sound I press the button for it. MTH locomotives also have an odometer and chronometer. Pressing those keys gives you interesting info that tells you how many scale miles your locomotive has traveled and how many hours it's operated.

With DCS you can record the length of your mainline. No more guessing as to how many feet of track you have or if you're trying to convert your layout into scale miles you'll know easily.

You can also record and playback operation of locomotives/trains on the layout. Granted most folks may not need these features but they are actually useful. It is nice when guests are over to have a pre-recorded operation of a couple trains to where I can just press playback and then put the throttle down.

People say that they don't need all of the cab chatter and talking that goes on but I say expand your mind a bit. I think the chatter is pretty neat. Reminds me of standing track side with my scanner listening to the activity. For me the added features add to the experience of just "running trains".

There are plenty of things that DCS can do that DCC can't do and the DCS interface is flat out easier to use. You don't have to have an engineering degree to understand what you're doing.

I've been in DCC for 10 years and know just about every in and out of DCC from how it works to programming. I've delved into the rare visited world of the 300+ page QSI manual to do things most people never touch. When I can do these things with some menus and clicks and no math with DCS, yeah I'd say DCS is superior. I've had a chance to compare DCC to DCS and there's no comparison. DCS far outdoes DCC in features and user interface.

As for the transponding, I'm not so sure that you can't do it with DCS. I have not had any experience with connecting a DCS system to a computer but since the DCS equipped locos give feedback to the TIU, I would think that this same feedback could be read by a computer program to display the description of the loco in a certain block.

Not sure why installing a Tsunami in an MTH locomotive was that much work. Why didn't you just bypass the MTH light board and wire the lights direct to the Tsunami? Seems like the way I'd do it. If I were converting an MTH DCS loco to Tsunami, every MTH component would come out and it'd be wired like any other loco for DCC. I think you make it harder than it needed to be.

I don't work for MTH nor am I being paid by MTH in any way. I just don't like it when people make claims that cannot be backed up or proven regarding any product. You say it can't do that but have you tried? Can you prove it can't be done? Just because something works differently doesn't make one of them wrong or bad, it's just different. If you have tunnel vision and only accept DCC as being the best that's not the fault of the products. That's human element saying that, "I'm not going to accept this, nor am I going to try it. A is better than B and that's that!" If you're more open minded to the possibility that B might be just as good as A or possibly even better then you start to develop your own ideas instead of just following the crowd. This in turn allows for better decision making.

You also need more hands time on something than just messing with it for a few minutes at a hobby store or on a friend's layout. You really have to spend a lot of time with it, even own it in some cases and really play with it. Push buttons, see what stuff does. Then you can accurately determine how the system works and what it takes to accomplish certain tasks.

If there were more DCS equipped locos on the market I'd certainly dump DCC and go DCS. DCS is just light years ahead of DCC.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

The people who still are trying to program by adjusting the cv's are being left behind in the dark ages of dcc, decoder pro eliminates pretty much all of the need to manually figure out the cv numbers. I tried dcs on a club layout in Montana couple years ago, I found it not to my liking but of course I will probably be trolled about it.


BTW does mth offer a mobile decoder yet for their dcs yet?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/10 10:19 by Afbombers.

Yes you can use a computer and JMRI to program DCC decoders and it works well. The problem is that not everyone has the capability to connect their layouts to a computer. The other problem is that if I'm needing to program a couple CV's I'm not going to go through the time to hook up the computer to do the programming. I can't afford to have a dedicated computer connected to the layout just for programming decoders. It's quicker to just grab the DCC throttle.

Thus the need for an easier to use throttle. DCS is an easier to use throttle. Most people "don't like it" likely because it's not what they are used to or started with. This is not a valid reason for saying the product sucks. It does what it is intended to do and does it well. Just like any DCC system.

Talk to any O gauge modeler that uses DCS on a daily basis and they'll tell you that DCC sucks. I've showed many an O gauge modeler DCC and they wonder how we don't end up pulling our hair out and think it is extremely antiquated. They are right, it is.

I should be able to do what JMRI does on the computer on my throttle. The technology is there, just look at all of the recent cell phone technology. I want to go into my throttle and in a plain English interface tell it to change settings and have it handle all of the "programming" on it's own. I don't want to have to know that bit 5 of CV29 turns on speed tables. I should go to a menu and select speed tables on or off. I don't want to have to calculate the values for CV17 and CV18 in order to program my sound decoder's address on the mainline without a booster. I should be able to put the loco on the track and have IT tell me who it is in English.

These are the things that DCS takes care of. It should all be in the handheld. Maybe I'm being lazy but the technology is there and even better than what DCS can do. I don't understand why someone hasn't come out with a train control system based on DCC that interfaces it to the user in a much better format. DCS is a start but it needs to go further.

DCS aftermarket decoders are not available....yet. If they were I'd be 100% DCS. Since they aren't I'm stuck with DCC until something better comes along. You can bet that if something better does come along based on DCS, DCC, or even plain old DC, I'm jumping ship from DCC and moving on.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

If that's all they have then it's far from being equal rather than superior. There isn't anything in that link that stands out and most if not all is available in DCC and then some.