Model Railroading > Opinion - Details West SK-196 (Spare Knuckle & Bracket)

Query for the few modelers out there who still practice the art of what what was once known as "model railroading"... <big_grin>

On your HO scale Details West spare knuckles (DW Part: SK-196), do you or don't you trim and file off the upper square corners of the white metal details? I'm referring to the two thin 90° angles above the bracket, at the top on either side of the ridge of the knuckle. There is no mention of removing these two bits along with the DW instructions that come with the parts, and their drawings appear to show the corners intact when applied to the model of your choice. Are these two corners really intended to be kept intact? Or are they simply there to increase surface area for glue application?

I ask because, well, it has just never looked right to me. So for several years now I've cut and filed them off. The finished detail appears much more natural to my eyes once painted and fixed to the model. When I observe other modelers work, focus in on their spare bracket details, and occasionally see the square outlines of those upper two corners, it stands out just enough to annoy me. Am I wrong here? Making too much of a trivial mater?

Maybe I've just stared too long directly at the real ones on 1:1 scale locomotives while lacing up hoses and MUing locomotive consists together...

1) Before & After (2 right out of the bag, trimmed corners, final paint rust/flat black)

2-3) InterMountain ES44C4 rear pilots; (weathered) stock moulded spare knuckles left, (unweathered) modified w/ painted DW parts to the right.

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4) BNSF ES44AC 5718, bracket w/ spare Type F knuckle, Bozeman Pass, MT (6/14/12).

~ Mr. MRL - knuckle counting, I know...

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The DW part has been around for awhile, and represents the type of knuckle holder roads like Santa Fe and SP used to use in the 1980s. Santa Fe mounted theirs on the truck sideframe, and SP mounted theirs on top of the fuel tank (before switching to "box" knuckle holders on the truck sideframes in the early late 80s/early 90s). Attached is a shot of an SP SD40R scanned from a slide given to me by a friend, cropped to show the empty knuckle holder on the tank...now made redundant by the sideframe mounted knuckle boxes.

As for modern-day applications, trimming the backing plate away will get you close to what you need. Of course, if you're feeling REALLY ambitious, you could get some knuckles from Sergent Engineering and scratchbuild the bracket to match what GE/BNSF are using...

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And you're not alone in spare knuckle rivet counting. For applications with the fuel tank mounted bracket, I use the DW #196, sans modifications. But since my SP modeling tends to swing more towards the 1990s and what I grew up with, I need more of the box-style holders SP used on the trucks of most of their units. The only exceptions to that application I'm aware of are on their GE AC44s and Dash-9s, which had their knuckle boxes mounted on the rear pilots.

Sunrise Enterprises made the SP knuckle box and knuckle years ago, based off of photos and dimensions I provided, courtesy of readily accessible SP units parked at Anaheim Wye back in the day.:) But of course, Sunrise is no more, and the knuckle boxes, like his other parts, are getting harder to find.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/15 00:54 by SP_8299.

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So it is safe to assume then, the entire square back to the knuckle box should be there for earlier (fuel tank) mounting applications. OK, good to know. The 1980s may as well be millions of years ago as far as I'm concerned, contemplating and understanding railroading practices of the days gone by are not my specialty. (I know, so so young still...)

I've considered picking up sets of the Sergents to use for spare knuckles. Or even better, swiping the few I have from the dozen or so I've owned for several years, for tinkering purposes. I guess If I really wanted to match my modeling standards, I should be snagging off all the knuckles from the countless plastic McHenry semi-scale couplers that Athearn utterly wastes with every model they sell to me. At least I could glue those into some home grown scratch built .005 styrene box. The Mchenry would at least more closely match the size and shape of the Kadee semi-scale couplers I've standardized on for several years now. Though I have my doubts as to how accurately the rear (interior) half of the McHenry matches the shape and contours of real knuckles.

I wonder if this opens the extremely remote possibility of a future detail part? The contemporary Spare Knuckle Box. I can picture it now... Two parts, a flat etched brass piece designed to be folded up into the box frame, with a white metal (or even better) plastic knuckle that is set inside. The designer could even go all out with prototypical E and F knuckles (yes there is a visible difference folks...). Who am I kidding... New detail parts today are as rare as seeing a Warbonnet GE on the point of a BNSF train in Southern California...

* Note to Athearn, who I know will eventually read this... Please don't change from the McHenry couplers you currently use. I don't wish for your models to increase in price simply because you opted to switch to Kadee or some other equivalent metal coupler set. I am quite content with tossing every one of your McHenry couplers in the recycle bin, so I can then purchase and install my own modified Kadee #153 or #119 sets.

~ Mr. MRL

MrMRL Wrote:
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> So it is safe to assume then, the entire square
> back to the knuckle box should be there for
> earlier (fuel tank) mounting applications.

Yep...SP (and others, like MILW) fuel tank mounting, and ATSF truck sideframe mounting.


> I've considered picking up sets of the Sergents to
> use for spare knuckles. Or even better, swiping
> the few I have from the dozen or so I've owned for
> several years, for tinkering purposes. I guess If
> I really wanted to match my modeling standards, I
> should be snagging off all the knuckles from the
> countless plastic McHenry semi-scale couplers that
> Athearn utterly wastes with every model they sell
> to me. At least I could glue those into some home
> grown scratch built .005 styrene box. The Mchenry
> would at least more closely match the size and
> shape of the Kadee semi-scale couplers I've
> standardized on for several years now. Though I
> have my doubts as to how accurately the rear
> (interior) half of the McHenry matches the shape
> and contours of real knuckles.

That's one way to go about it, but I'd probably go with the Sergent knuckle route. Yeah, it may not match the operational Kadee installed in the coupler pockets, but in the looks department, it would probably look a lot better than a recycled semi-scale knuckle. YMMV, of course.


> I wonder if this opens the extremely remote
> possibility of a future detail part? The
> contemporary Spare Knuckle Box. I can picture it
> now... Two parts, a flat etched brass piece
> designed to be folded up into the box frame, with
> a white metal (or even better) plastic knuckle
> that is set inside. The designer could even go all
> out with prototypical E and F knuckles (yes there
> is a visible difference folks...). Who am I
> kidding... New detail parts today are as rare as
> seeing a Warbonnet GE on the point of a BNSF train
> in Southern California...

It's sounds doable; that talented detail part manufacturer here in SoCal ("Mr. PF") might be open to your suggestion, and the photoetch and white metal casting construction would be right up his alley. Grab some photos and dimensions, and shoot him an email. Couldn't hurt. For final bit of cool detail, the knuckle could be drilled through, and secured with a length of brass wire, simulating the rod that holds the real ones in place in the bracket.

SP_8299 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's sounds doable; that talented detail part
> manufacturer here in SoCal ("Mr. PF") might be
> open to your suggestion, and the photoetch and
> white metal casting construction would be right up
> his alley. Grab some photos and dimensions, and
> shoot him an email. Couldn't hurt. For final bit
> of cool detail, the knuckle could be drilled
> through, and secured with a length of brass wire,
> simulating the rod that holds the real ones in
> place in the bracket.


My only fear is the questionable integrity of a flat brass surface glued to a flat plastic surface.There should be some sort of mounting pin worked in there or something...


But wait space fans! I just discovered this little bombshell...
http://www.protomodeler.com/index.php?/topic/2352-spare-knuckle-holders/

Mr. MRL

For my CN locos with the spare knuckles on the rear pilot I have indeed been filing off the top corners of the DW-196 spare knuckles. I may have built a couple models before I realized the part didn't look right but now they all get filed. I have a few Wisconsin Central locos with the ATSF style bracket on top of the fuel tank where I used the DW-196 as-is with just a bit of cleaning up.

During the brief existence of Railflyer he made a spare knuckle bracket much like you described Robbie. Flat etched brass which was bent to shape then a piece of brass wire inserted from side to side.

Andrew C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/15 08:53 by andrewcastle.

Mr. MRL,

I think you are on to something, I never noticed the D.W. part was "overcast" but now I'll trim it. The etched knuckle bracket from Sissons looks really interesting, think I'll have to get myself some of them.

Ed

SP_8299 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And you're not alone in spare knuckle rivet
> counting. For applications with the fuel tank
> mounted bracket, I use the DW #196, sans
> modifications. But since my SP modeling tends to
> swing more towards the 1990s and what I grew up
> with, I need more of the box-style holders SP used
> on the trucks of most of their units. The only
> exceptions to that application I'm aware of are on
> their GE AC44s and Dash-9s, which had their
> knuckle boxes mounted on the rear pilots.
>
> Sunrise Enterprises made the SP knuckle box and
> knuckle years ago, based off of photos and
> dimensions I provided, courtesy of readily
> accessible SP units parked at Anaheim Wye back in
> the day.:) But of course, Sunrise is no more, and
> the knuckle boxes, like his other parts, are
> getting harder to find.


Contact Joe Warren at Showcase Miniatures about these parts...this kind of stuff is right up his alley....

MrMRL Wrote:
>
> But wait space fans! I just discovered this little
> bombshell...
> http://www.protomodeler.com/index.php?/topic/2352-
> spare-knuckle-holders/

Tony is a superb modeler, but I guess I just don't get the need to have such a part cast or etched, when it would take about 10 minutes to build one. And I can tell you from experience that styrene would work just fine, unless you're planning to have it need to hold something with the density of a black hole. I love the classic metaphor of how NASA spend quite a bit of time and research dollars to develop a ball-point pen that would work in the zero gravity environment of space. Cash strapped, the Russians simply used a pencil. There's a lot of overthinking the "problem" going on here...

Elizabeth

Come on Liz, Tony's parts are outstanding. 10 mins. Is a bit of a exaggeration and besides, not everyone possesses your extraordinary skills.

Respectfully, Bobby

Posted from Android

You know, I've never really thought about the "back" of that part, but I think you're on to something. Good call on removing it.

- Jeff Carlson

Darn now I have to pop a dozen off and fix them.....................thanks alot! :) Thanks for the heads up.


Dave Dane

Don't get me wrong folk's, it has been noted that the DW parts are correct for their intended 1980s-1990s practice of being mounted to the top of a fuel tank. My modifying them for rear pilot applications may be effective, but probably isn't 100% accurate since the DW casting isn't quite the same as many of the pilot mounted prototypes seen today. I guess "Close'nuff" or "3-foot Rule" could apply here, but critical eyeballs tend to move in a lot closer than 36" at modeling meets.

~ Mr. MRL

Bahaha!! Love it Liz. I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. It only took me 9 minutes to build one....

Betsy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MrMRL Wrote:
> >
> > But wait space fans! I just discovered this
> little
> > bombshell...
> >
> http://www.protomodeler.com/index.php?/topic/2352-
>
> > spare-knuckle-holders/
>
> Tony is a superb modeler, but I guess I just don't
> get the need to have such a part cast or etched,
> when it would take about 10 minutes to build one.
> And I can tell you from experience that styrene
> would work just fine, unless you're planning to
> have it need to hold something with the density of
> a black hole. I love the classic metaphor of how
> NASA spend quite a bit of time and research
> dollars to develop a ball-point pen that would
> work in the zero gravity environment of space.
> Cash strapped, the Russians simply used a pencil.
> There's a lot of overthinking the "problem" going
> on here...
>
> Elizabeth

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Just etch a hole in the brass plate so a wire pin can be inserted for strength. The knuckle casting would cover the pin.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53243414@N00/10462327414/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Here's a photo of the ones I made from styrene. They took a lot longer than 30 mins. I did some from brass, but I don't have photos.

Regards, Bobby

Posted from Android

I never thought about trimming them off but it does look a whole lot better. Thanks for pointing that out.

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

Mr. MRL I too am glad you pointed this out. I never noticed that before. I now need to go back and fix my MRL models to fix this.
Thanks Glenn