Model Railroading > Big Dawg Model and Rapido Trains Inc

A message posted from Jason Shron of Rapido Trains inc For those of you unaware, Big Dawg models is a guy who makes modified duplicates of models (Rapido F40PH, Kato Dash 9) and sells them onlineGentlemen, These guys - Big Dawg - have stolen our intellectual property by modifying our F40PH-2D shell and recasting it and selling it. We've made inquiries and the legal cost of going after Big Dawg is probably ten times their annual sales, so we're going to ignore them for now. However, if you buy these illegal goods, STOP CALLING US FOR HELP.  We will not give you paint formulas. We will not sell you chassis. We will not send you detail parts. We will not help you complete your Big Dawg model that was ripped off from the Rapido model. You know, the Rapido model that took us years of hard work to develop and cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars.  If you decide to buy the Big Dawg shell rather than wait for the Rapido rebuilt F40PH-2D currently in development, then you are ON YOUR OWN. We will NOT HELP YOU. Please feel free to pass this message on. -Jason

Good for you!!!!!

Thanks for the heads-up. I for one will not be purhasing anything form Big Dawg even if they bring it out themselves. We all need to support the people who have invested huge quantities of time and money to provide products for us and do all we can to put the rip-off artists out of business. Good luck, Jason - we are behind you!

C.L. Dillon
Green River ,Wyoming

To Rapido: It would probably be a good idea, if this has not already been done, to send them a cease-and-desist letter so you don't inadvertently forfeit your IP rights -- even if pursuing them to any greater extent would be futile.
 

I bought some stuff from them last year, was surprised when I flipped it over and saw Athearn on the underside...can't buy from them because I know it's stolen now.
Nick

Posted from iPhone

This is called "recasting" and it is a big problem amongst toy, model and prop builders. Do not support the "recasters" by buying their goods.

BDO posted their side of the opinion on their Facebook page.

I'm staying out of the argument.

Michael

Just becasue it may be legal does not mean it is ethical!

TL

Thought about picking up a bn slug until I saw how much of a poor job they did with the doors, basically slapped a emd door on top of the side.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/15 21:10 by Afbombers.

I have always thought it funny that Big Dawg uses "Original" in there name considering most of the shell is lifted. There stuff is crud at best but I guess it is good enough for some. I would not build one if it was given to me. Having said that people casting kitbashed shells is nothing new has been done many many times over the years, I believe Big Dawg is correct (legally) that Rapido has no leg to stand on and if their lawyer thinks they do they need to get a new one ASAP. Major manufacture threatening small time garage operation with probably 1/1000 their sales over something like this can in the end come off as a petty PR mess.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/15 00:47 by ESPEE5318.

How did this guy get a hold of Jason's F40PH?  The Rapido model has not hit the stores yet have they?  Was it lifted out of the factory's computer in China?

Rick

I don't really know where I stand on this. One the one hand, stealing is stealing; if its intellectual property or material property. On the other hand, SOME of the shells have never been done in HO scale and may NEVER be done by the major manufactures. The C36-7 locomotive is a favorite of mine and I don't see anyone else doing it. But I also understand Rapidos' predicament. Years ago, Rail Power Products made shell that were (IMHO) not the best shells but even Overland Models got on the bandwagon and made chassis for them. Eventually Athearn bought them out and improved the mold. Now we have 3D printing and can do basically the same thing. Are we ALL going to be held accountable to the major maufactures when we can eventaully print our own parts that are either commercially unavailable or cheaper for the consumer to produce? I see this as the first "threat" to the manufactures' existence in our hobby and as in all competiton, evolve or go the way of the dodo. 

I don't want to speak for Jason, but I think his issue which would be mine as well if I owned Rapido is the following.

He would have no issue with you purchasing a Rapido F40 and kitbashing it as the -2 version and probably even selling it
online for a profit.  His issue is Big Dawg is actually casting his shell!, which Jason and Co invested big in and risked
their money on.  Me personally I would much rather use the Rapido shell due to it's great detailing, and modify the
rest to a -2.

I understand BigDawg is going for those who are not good at or don't want to do kitbashing.  But I bet he could sell
almost as many upgrade kits of just the updated details needed so you can buy a Rapido F40 and make the changes
yourself or pay a custom builder to do it for you.  Same premis would go for most of the other stuff he makes.

Jason and others I have talked to are most upset that BigDawg is using and casting thier product.  If one
chooses to not purchase a Rapido F40 for the drive, they have lost sales from someone  copying thier work.

I even know a few who would not have had an issue with BigDawg had he asked permission first.  How do I know
that?  Because I know a major resin mfg that has used several models from major mfg's with their permission in writing. 
One of them is a model train mfg and the other is a model mfg.  This is why I can't blanket support don't support recasters. 
Not all of them are using others works without their permission.

Kris

Gandy

There are a couple of issues that you bring up that are unrelated. Overland produced drives for both RailPower Product shells as well as Athearn Blue Boxed locomotive shells, as a more ready-to-run option for modelers. This was a true benefit to the hobby and OMI worked with RPP to create the drives. BDO in this case obviously has not worked with nor has permission to use any part of Rapido's shells and IP work.

While, Athean bought out RailPower, and Athearn has yet to do anything with several of the molds, for any one of a couple of reasons, Athearn owns the IP rights to their shells.

In regards to 3D printed parts, model manufacturers can't say anything to you in regards to parts or shells you create and keep for personal use. If you create a part or shell or whatever on your own and sell it, no one can say anything to you, wven if they have the same item. The caveat to this is if you get into trademarked items. GM will not license any item under either 1-1/2" or 2" as they deem it a choking hazard. Jeep's 7 bar grill is trademarked as well, so that is a vehicle that needs approval as well.

Once you use another existing manufacturers IP, specifically where the manufacturers logo is embossed into the item and sell it as a commercial item, you have crossed a legal line. There is some gray area based on what is and isn't done to modify the original IP, but you still set yourself for a legal issue.

I have not seem what BDO has or hasn't done, but ethically for me, it's a no go, no matter what they offer. I am the same way about MTH. They used several brass items from Overland Models, including but not limited to the N&W Powhatan Arrow set, so MTH is a no go with me as well.

Regards
Russ

Posted from Android

I've bought a couple of his offerings.  Namely the SD45-2B hammerhead and non-hammerhead models.  I'd qualify them as "good from far, but far from good".  I could certainly build better models on my own.

I started one of the projects and discovered that the shell was warped/twisted.  I'll probably boil up some water and attempt to fix this issue.  The SD45-2B shells were molded from the Athearn shell so they have more detail than the old RPP offerings that I built mose of my SD45-2 fleet on.  

Most of what Big Dawg is offering is what I call niche stuff...one off models that will most likely never be produced in plastic.  That being said, for a modeler who doesn't have the skills to kitbash these are good shells.  Several of us in KC have been wondering how long it was going to take one of the major manufacturers to clue in on what Big Dawg is doing.  

In my opinion:
Is it legal...probably, but there is a lot of grey area, pun intended.
Is it ethical...probably not, but ethics has pretty much gone out the window on a lot of things these days. 

Eric 

As far as the F40PH model goes, from what I can gather Big Dawg got ahold of a Rapido F40 shell (may have purchased from hobby shop, who knows?) added a 3D printed rear HEP section (produced by another modeller and available on Shapeways) then cast the entire kitbash to sell as an "original" model. Now I have no problem with someone buying a 3D printed detail part for a kitbash project, but to outright copy the design and work of a company then sell it on line is unethical in my books. Most of what Big Dawg produces is crudly done, and I guess his customer base is people who don't want to take the time to do a kitbash for themselves. 

-Trevor

Knocking off the shell is one thing.  If this type of operation was to proliferate,  what type of drive are you going to use for you F-40?  Macking niche products like C-36-7's, SD 45-2 B's where you are just swappping shells from an existsing model are 'basically' cool with me.  Duplicating something not even released is just too shady.  Why would you bother with a poorly molded product when the original is of higher quality anyway?  Given the amount of effort and capital it takes to keep this hobby alive with new high quality offerings, it is not in anyone's, except the recaster's best interest to support such products.   Most holes in prototype reproduction are being filled faster that I can buy them anyway.   The list of engines yet to be produced in plastic is shrinking fast.  I need P-30ch's, SDL-39's, Baldwin Centercabs, DD-35A's and B's etc.

Too bad that Rapido doesn't go after them but this may scare any who think that doing this may cost them buyers and or a lawsuit in the long run. By suing just one for everything including there personal items such as houses and other property which due to the fact most use there garage to do business out of may stop this.

What is going to get really interesting is when affordable high quality 3D scanners and injection molding quality 3D printers (Carbon3D looks like it will) start to proliferate in the private use market.  This kind of thing may get far worse and it will be almost impossible for someone to prove that their product has been ripped off.  I'm betting that the manufacturer's side of the hobby is going to go through some radical changes in the mid-future as a result of this technology as well.

MT

This is a very tricky problem. It's one thing if someone casts a copy of a shell whole and sells it. But what if the guy just borrowed a radiator grill for a totally different kind of model? Purists still will cry foul, but we really shouldn't be so stringent in a hobby with a limited scope and resources. I will go so far to say I have no problem with him selling a kitbash of a Athearn SD40-2 into a SD40-2B. I would still like to know what modifications were made to rapido shell, and how different that would be to the original model.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR