Passenger Trains > Sunset reroute?

This months PTJ has an article on fixing the Sunset. Having been a passenger on this train many times finally someone makes sense. There proposal is split the train into two trains, the Sunset would operate from Los Angeles to Dallas. From Dallas a second train they call the Cajon King would serve New Orleans Jacksonville and terminate in Orlando.
The routing they propose for the Sunset would reopen the line to Phoenix to serve this market directly. Fron El Paso to Dallas the Sunset would travel the old TP route through towns and cities in west Texas that actually have some living breathing population.
The Cajon King would serve Shreveport, Alexandria, and Baton Rouge on the KCS route to New Orleans. East of New Orleans the Cajon King would travel the route as before.
Houston would be served by an extension of the Heartland Flyer to that city and San Antonio would be served by the Texas Eagle with Dallas serving as a hub city for all of these trains.
I think PTJ is to be commended for this effort and Amtrak should take a very serious look.

You may recall that the line west of Phoenix is jointed rail and that an unsolved terrorist attack derailed, killed and injured those on the Sunset. Fear of a repeat, and no way to prevent it happening again account jointed rail, may have contributed to the decision to reroute 1 & 2 via Mariposa.

passengerfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This months PTJ has an article on fixing the
> Sunset. Having been a passenger on this train many
> times finally someone makes sense. There proposal
> is split the train into two trains, the Sunset
> would operate from Los Angeles to Dallas. From
> Dallas a second train they call the Cajon King
> would serve New Orleans Jacksonville and terminate
> in Orlando.
> The routing they propose for the Sunset would
> reopen the line to Phoenix to serve this market
> directly. Fron El Paso to Dallas the Sunset would
> travel the old TP route through towns and cities
> in west Texas that actually have some living
> breathing population.
> The Cajon King would serve Shreveport, Alexandria,
> and Baton Rouge on the KCS route to New Orleans.
> East of New Orleans the Cajon King would travel
> the route as before.
> Houston would be served by an extension of the
> Heartland Flyer to that city and San Antonio would
> be served by the Texas Eagle with Dallas serving
> as a hub city for all of these trains.
> I think PTJ is to be commended for this effort and
> Amtrak should take a very serious look.

I would think a "Cajun King" would be a more appropriate name.

passengerfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This months PTJ has an article on fixing the
> Sunset. Having been a passenger on this train many
> times finally someone makes sense. There proposal
> is split the train into two trains, the Sunset
> would operate from Los Angeles to Dallas. From
> Dallas a second train they call the Cajon King
> would serve New Orleans Jacksonville and terminate
> in Orlando.
> The routing they propose for the Sunset would
> reopen the line to Phoenix to serve this market
> directly. Fron El Paso to Dallas the Sunset would
> travel the old TP route through towns and cities
> in west Texas that actually have some living
> breathing population.
> The Cajon King would serve Shreveport, Alexandria,
> and Baton Rouge on the KCS route to New Orleans.
> East of New Orleans the Cajon King would travel
> the route as before.
> Houston would be served by an extension of the
> Heartland Flyer to that city and San Antonio would
> be served by the Texas Eagle with Dallas serving
> as a hub city for all of these trains.
> I think PTJ is to be commended for this effort and
> Amtrak should take a very serious look.

How would the train get across the T&P when traffic levels peak once the economy gets back on its feet? I doubt Amtrak would shell out the cash to add another track over the T&P however I'm sure the Big Yellow Father would be more than happy to take the money and run. Dallas can be very congested. Its hard enough to move traffic through that quagmire.


dzeph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may recall that the line west of Phoenix is
> jointed rail and that an unsolved terrorist attack
> derailed, killed and injured those on the Sunset.
> Fear of a repeat, and no way to prevent it
> happening again account jointed rail, may have
> contributed to the decision to reroute 1 & 2 via
> Mariposa.

Nah, the line west of Phoenix was canned due to low traffic and maintenance costs.
Be nice to see it reopened to give Phoenix the rail service it deserves...

Axy

dzeph Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may recall that the line west of Phoenix is
> jointed rail and that an unsolved terrorist attack
> derailed, killed and injured those on the Sunset.
> Fear of a repeat, and no way to prevent it
> happening again account jointed rail, may have
> contributed to the decision to reroute 1 & 2 via
> Mariposa.

Terrorism is always a concern but it could happen anywhere, with any type of track. Plus, there are many unsolved cases of railroad sabotage going back 70 years. You can only allow a past event to influence your thinking regarding a particular location for so long.

The actual reasons for Amtrak leaving Phoenix:

UP purchase of the SP and desire to eliminate marginal trackage.

Expiry of the 25-year "standard of utility" provision in the 1971 Amtrak legislation.

Lack of interest by local civic authorities. Tri-weekly train!

Lack of interest on the part of Amtrak management.

Cost. The west Phoenix line needed a major rebuilding. The signal system, in particular, was a maintenance nightmare. UP wanted Amtrak to bear the full maintenance expense.

Extremely well-maintained parallel UP route (Gila Line) bypassing Phoenix but providing a potential for continued service to the Phoenix metro area from Maricopa (25 miles to the south).

****

Currently, in my opinion, it may be easier for Amtrak to return to Phoenix. Rationale:

1) Perception that UP is now "easier to deal with". They may be interested in reopening the west Phoenix for twice-daily freight and tri-weekly Amtrak, if upgrade funding was provided.

2) The signal system between Arlington and Wellton on the west Phoenix has been so heavily stripped by vandals and souvenir hunters, that "maintaining it" would be out of the question. That situation plus the passage of time MAY merit a successful petition to the STB to downgrade the ABS to TWC. If that is the case, the line could be brought up to 49 mph standards with a minimum investment mainly for selective tie and rail replacement and resurface (the existing 60-year old jointed rail is largely OK-the line never had enough traffic to completely wear it out). 49mph would not be a huge penalty for Amtrak as the former line was 60mph max with major stretches of 50 mph. No need for meets-the remaining sidings could be removed. The lack of switches, sidings and "absolute block" between control points, would be major selling points with the STB. A functioning ABS system would still have been useful for broken rail detection, but the risk is mitigated by the 49 mph top speed and the fact that jointed rail actually performs better in the temperature extremes of the Arizona desert than CWR.

3) UP has done a beautiful job upgrading the east Phoenix line between Picacho and Phoenix. In the early 1990s under the cash-strapped SP, this line had an FRA 40mph all classes restriction placed on it. Now the track is so good that 70 mph psgr may be permissible in places.

4) Amtrak SHOULD directly serve Phoenix! Fifth largest metro area in the U.S.? In the top two or three for growth?


Bob

Bob,
Woudn't psgr trains be allowed 59 MPH vs 49 MPH on insignaled trak?

I agree about the need to return to Phoenix. Yes, there will be significant upgrades to the ROW, but it seems like that is always an issue, regardless of where something of this nature is proposed. Before I make the next comment, I want people to know that I am not directing it to anyone personally (on TO or elsewhere), but it seems like every proposal that comes along is followed by a litany of reasons (or excuses) for not doing it. Yes, those things exist, but to get any major project (rail or otherwise) completed, I would much rather see it in the perspective of "these are issues that need to be resolved" rather than approaching it with "these are the reasons it won't work"......there is a big difference between the approaches.

Just for the record, I am not some wide-eyed kid....maybe just a wide-eyed 60 year old.

The_Chief_Way Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bob,
> Woudn't psgr trains be allowed 59 MPH vs 49 MPH on
> insignaled trak?


Yes.

I didn't propose 59mph because any proposal with the west Phoenix is going to be a cost, host-railroad (UP) and regulatory compromise. Any proposal to the STB involving passenger trains and a signal downgrade is dicey-best not to get greedy.

I don't know of any 59mph signal-based applications for new Amtrak routes in the STB era. Rutland service may be one. What are the speeds there? CV and P&E non-signalled segments in the 1980s? I think the P&E is 59mph.

Bob

Max speed for dark territory is 59mph. The Vermonter's route north of Palmer, MA lacks signals and has a 59mph limit.

Dave

The Sunset Limited finally is done coming this Oct. I am so happy and making Amtrak 21&22 daily from Chicago to LAX.

railcity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sunset Limited finally is done coming this
> Oct. I am so happy and making Amtrak 21&22 daily
> from Chicago to LAX.

Here we go again, when we hear this from GenePoon or Mundo then this will be set in stone. Until then it is all speculation that this is what Amtrak would like to do.

SP7615

Probably a nice proposal, just expensive to fund. Money unlikely to be available for something like this.

Stay with the original routing (except if they can go back to Phoenix) and either extend it back to Florida or add another train! I for one do not, repeat, do not want 1 and 2 eleminated after that talk a few months back!

The Pioneer through Boise cut off used to run at 59MPH on that unsignalled section of U.P. Freight was carded at 49MPH, although now that it's a shortline, I'm not sure what shape that track is in.


the above thread would imply that the Sunset route would lose service between Sierra Blanca and San Antonio. Does anyone see that as a significant loss?

jofegan

Having been a passenger on the Sunset many times I personally like the reroute idea. Rattlesnakes outnumber the human population between Sierra Blanca and San Antonio by at least 1,000 to 1. The proposed new route hits some major population centers in west Texas which should significantly increase ridership.
The name of the proposed train east of Dallas they proposed was Cajun King. I would suggest Cajun Queen after all it has a RR connotation the song (Big Bad John got in a fight over a Cajun Queen). I am sure the proposed routing east of Dallas would bring more passengers between their and New Orleans than the present Houston - New Orleans routing. The new route of both trains would open up train service to many Americans who have not had passenger service since the 60s and certainly not since Amtrak bagan in 1970.

Arizona is hoping to purchase the West Phoenix Line with federal funding. Word is talks have been going on with the UP for several weeks. Amtrak has also been involved.

Further more the first passenger service over the line would probably be the daily reincarnation of the Sunset-Texas Eagle now hoped to begin as soon as the fall timetable change or next springs timetable at the latest.

Still the return to Phoenix no matter what is at least three or four years away. In the interim a Thruway bus connection from Phoenix to Maricopa is likely to be provided.

bnsfbob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dzeph Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You may recall that the line west of Phoenix is
> > jointed rail and that an unsolved terrorist
> attack
> > derailed, killed and injured those on the
> Sunset.
> > Fear of a repeat, and no way to prevent it
> > happening again account jointed rail, may have
> > contributed to the decision to reroute 1 & 2
> via
> > Mariposa.
>
> Terrorism is always a concern but it could happen
> anywhere, with any type of track. Plus, there are
> many unsolved cases of railroad sabotage going
> back 70 years. You can only allow a past event to
> influence your thinking regarding a particular
> location for so long.
>
> The actual reasons for Amtrak leaving Phoenix:
>
> UP purchase of the SP and desire to eliminate
> marginal trackage.
>
> Expiry of the 25-year "standard of utility"
> provision in the 1971 Amtrak legislation.
>
> Lack of interest by local civic authorities.
> Tri-weekly train!
>
> Lack of interest on the part of Amtrak
> management.
>
> Cost. The west Phoenix line needed a major
> rebuilding. The signal system, in particular, was
> a maintenance nightmare. UP wanted Amtrak to bear
> the full maintenance expense.
>
> Extremely well-maintained parallel UP route (Gila
> Line) bypassing Phoenix but providing a potential
> for continued service to the Phoenix metro area
> from Maricopa (25 miles to the south).
>
> ****
>
> Currently, in my opinion, it may be easier for
> Amtrak to return to Phoenix. Rationale:
>
> 1) Perception that UP is now "easier to deal
> with". They may be interested in reopening the
> west Phoenix for twice-daily freight and
> tri-weekly Amtrak, if upgrade funding was
> provided.
>
> 2) The signal system between Arlington and Wellton
> on the west Phoenix has been so heavily stripped
> by vandals and souvenir hunters, that "maintaining
> it" would be out of the question. That situation
> plus the passage of time MAY merit a successful
> petition to the STB to downgrade the ABS to TWC.
> If that is the case, the line could be brought up
> to 49 mph standards with a minimum investment
> mainly for selective tie and rail replacement and
> resurface (the existing 60-year old jointed rail
> is largely OK-the line never had enough traffic to
> completely wear it out). 49mph would not be a huge
> penalty for Amtrak as the former line was 60mph
> max with major stretches of 50 mph. No need for
> meets-the remaining sidings could be removed. The
> lack of switches, sidings and "absolute block"
> between control points, would be major selling
> points with the STB. A functioning ABS system
> would still have been useful for broken rail
> detection, but the risk is mitigated by the 49 mph
> top speed and the fact that jointed rail actually
> performs better in the temperature extremes of the
> Arizona desert than CWR.
>
> 3) UP has done a beautiful job upgrading the east
> Phoenix line between Picacho and Phoenix. In the
> early 1990s under the cash-strapped SP, this line
> had an FRA 40mph all classes restriction placed on
> it. Now the track is so good that 70 mph psgr may
> be permissible in places.
>
> 4) Amtrak SHOULD directly serve Phoenix! Fifth
> largest metro area in the U.S.? In the top two or
> three for growth?
>
>
> Bob


Commenting on sabotage going back 70 years,Believe it was in 1939 that someone unbolted a joint and moved the rail out of line on the SP west of Carlin NV,resulting in major derailment of the "City of San Franciso" with around 20 some fatalities?That incident was never solved.I vaguely recall seeing it in the old Fox MovieTone News Reels at a Sat or Sun matinee at the local movie theater? I was only 9 years old then. A movie ticket was only a Dime in those days!

Paul Bliss
Oxnard CA
UP Santa Barbara Sub.

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Max speed for dark territory is 59mph. The
> Vermonter's route north of Palmer, MA lacks
> signals and has a 59mph limit.
>
> Dave

That former L&N track east of Flomaton AL,through Pensacola FL is dark territory until west of Tallahassee FL on former SAL. ABS from there to Jacksonville! I was on the first Sunset Ltd.from LAX to Miami in April 1993.The CSX rehab. the former L&N line across the Florida Panhadle. Noticed lot of concrete ties,power switches and signals at some sidings.But still 59mph max.for passenger trains!

Paul Bliss
Oxnard CA
UP Santa Barbara Sub.

The other thing no one has brought up is that Amtrak does not have the facilities at Dallas to make this happen. Their yard and crew base is in Fort Worth. This idea was put out there when it seemed mail and express business was going to takeoff but it didn't and the plans were scrapped.

If Amtrak does this they will most likely wait until they get permission to operate across the TRE between Dallas and Fort Worth to avoid numerous backup moves and delays due to congestion around Tower 55.

BNSFDS

railcity Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sunset Limited finally is done coming this
> Oct. I am so happy and making Amtrak 21&22 daily
> from Chicago to LAX.


Save the drama Railcity, you're for one are the wrost Amtrak Suppoter on here!