Passenger Trains > Hoosier Bid Solicitation

According to news reports in Indiana, a meeting took place between some local mayors and political figures and Joseph Boardman yesterday regarding the Hoosier State train. Performance in January was a dismal 33%. Finally Amtrak's president has promised to negotiate a reroute with the Canadian National to eliminate the Thornton Junction / Yard Center / Dolton snafu with the UP in Chicago.

It looks like the consultant report will finally be out in April, and bid solicitations will be put forth to encourage non-Amtrak operators to run the train should its operation be renewed in 2015 and later.

If Amtrak's management cannot handle fixing this corridor, it appears this will be the beginning of the end for Amtrak's operation of commuter trains in the midwest. In the past, the corridor was only looked at by Amtrak's managers as a way to move junk equipment cheaply to and from Beech Grove. In the future, if some other operator gets the contract, Amtrak's junk will either have to move at great cost on somebody else's trains, or as special CSX moves.

Could be an interesting summer.

Like Amtrak's stupid crew scheduling had nothing to do with it ?
Just blame CSX, winter, and act like a victim, typical Amtrak

And how much is a reroute going to cost? Who will pay?

This whole Indiana thing is difficult. I'd like to see better, but I won't be the one to drag Amtrak through the mud about something where no one else is willing to make a real commitment.

the "junk" equipment could surely be handled on 50/51 if it survives

I agree w/TS1457. What is a private operator going to offer that is going to make a difference...a snack car? This whole situation shows how uninformed Governor Spence and the Indiana legislator truly are. Without a major upgrade of the Hoosier State's route with state money, you are going to be left with...the Hoosier State (but maybe with a snack car). If a private operator does come in and refuses to handle Amtrak's cars to and from Beech Grove, Amtrak could make it difficult for the "New Hoosier State" (with a snack car) to use Union Station in Chicago. The other issue comes with dealing w/the host railroad. CSX knows what they have with Amtrak...would they want another entity operating on their tracks, doubtful.

As far as the being the end of Amtrak operating local MW services, I doubt this. Indiana and Wisconsin have no influence w/the states of Illinois, Michigan and Missouri regarding passenger rail given there anti-rail past history. Once all these private bids come in, I suspect we will be looking at something similar to the Train X fiasco in California. The AAF Florida operation will probably work given the real estate potential along FEC's right-of-way and also the travel market between Miami and Orlando. This does not exist between Chicago and Indy.

The best we can hope for would be incremental upgrades to allow the Hoosier State to get in and out of Chicago and Indy quicker, and upgrade of the track and signal system to allow for consistent 80 mph running. Also the purchase of additional bi-levels and engines similar to what the other MW states are getting and more frequencies.

All this will cost money, and it will not come from the private sector...the state of Indiana will have to cover this. If they do, a Chicago-Indy corridor could start to emerge, if not, we will be left with...the Hoosier State (but maybe with a snack car).

< the "junk" equipment could surely be handled on 50/51 if it survives>

Not easily it can't. Still need a crew and a loco to haul equipment back and forth from the Grove, and to switch equipment.
Mixing deadheading Superliners with low level cars is not easily done without a buffer car of some sort with no or a tubular diaphragms.

I don't see Indiana subsidizing a snack car, even if it costs them $1 a year.
If they take the CN, what if any stops would they miss ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/14 10:44 by joemvcnj.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And how much is a reroute going to cost? Who will
> pay?
>
It would cost next to nothing, as all the tracks are already in place. Maybe a little bit to upgrade the northeast wye at CN Jct, but that is about it.

fulham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree w/TS1457. What is a private operator
> going to offer that is going to make a
> difference...a snack car? This whole situation
> shows how uninformed Governor Spence and the
> Indiana legislator truly are. Without a major
> upgrade of the Hoosier State's route with state
> money, you are going to be left with...the Hoosier
> State (but maybe with a snack car). If a private
> operator does come in and refuses to handle
> Amtrak's cars to and from Beech Grove, Amtrak
> could make it difficult for the "New Hoosier
> State" (with a snack car) to use Union Station in
> Chicago. The other issue comes with dealing w/the
> host railroad. CSX knows what they have with
> Amtrak...would they want another entity operating
> on their tracks, doubtful.
>
> As far as the being the end of Amtrak operating
> local MW services, I doubt this. Indiana and
> Wisconsin have no influence w/the states of
> Illinois, Michigan and Missouri regarding
> passenger rail given there anti-rail past history.
> Once all these private bids come in, I suspect we
> will be looking at something similar to the Train
> X fiasco in California. The AAF Florida operation
> will probably work given the real estate potential
> along FEC's right-of-way and also the travel
> market between Miami and Orlando. This does not
> exist between Chicago and Indy.
>
> The best we can hope for would be incremental
> upgrades to allow the Hoosier State to get in and
> out of Chicago and Indy quicker, and upgrade of
> the track and signal system to allow for
> consistent 80 mph running. Also the purchase of
> additional bi-levels and engines similar to what
> the other MW states are getting and more
> frequencies.
>
> All this will cost money, and it will not come
> from the private sector...the state of Indiana
> will have to cover this. If they do, a
> Chicago-Indy corridor could start to emerge, if
> not, we will be left with...the Hoosier State (but
> maybe with a snack car).

But doesn't privatization solve all problems?

fulham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree w/TS1457. What is a private operator
> going to offer that is going to make a
> difference...a snack car? This whole situation
> shows how uninformed Governor Spence and the
> Indiana legislator truly are. Without a major
> upgrade of the Hoosier State's route with state
> money, you are going to be left with...the Hoosier
> State (but maybe with a snack car). If a private
> operator does come in and refuses to handle
> Amtrak's cars to and from Beech Grove, Amtrak
> could make it difficult for the "New Hoosier
> State" (with a snack car) to use Union Station in
> Chicago. The other issue comes with dealing w/the
> host railroad. CSX knows what they have with
> Amtrak...would they want another entity operating
> on their tracks, doubtful.
>
> As far as the being the end of Amtrak operating
> local MW services, I doubt this. Indiana and
> Wisconsin have no influence w/the states of
> Illinois, Michigan and Missouri regarding
> passenger rail given there anti-rail past history.
> Once all these private bids come in, I suspect we
> will be looking at something similar to the Train
> X fiasco in California. The AAF Florida operation
> will probably work given the real estate potential
> along FEC's right-of-way and also the travel
> market between Miami and Orlando. This does not
> exist between Chicago and Indy.
>
> The best we can hope for would be incremental
> upgrades to allow the Hoosier State to get in and
> out of Chicago and Indy quicker, and upgrade of
> the track and signal system to allow for
> consistent 80 mph running. Also the purchase of
> additional bi-levels and engines similar to what
> the other MW states are getting and more
> frequencies.
>
> All this will cost money, and it will not come
> from the private sector...the state of Indiana
> will have to cover this. If they do, a
> Chicago-Indy corridor could start to emerge, if
> not, we will be left with...the Hoosier State (but
> maybe with a snack car).

Maybe the state of Indiana thinks it can either get, better service at the same price, or the same service at a cheaper price.

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ts1457 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > And how much is a reroute going to cost? Who will
> > pay?
> >
> It would cost next to nothing, as all the tracks
> are already in place. Maybe a little bit to
> upgrade the northeast wye at CN Jct, but that is
> about it.

You should know by now that a host railroad will not take on indirectly subsidizing an additional passenger train (per mile haulage fees that are paid to the railroads are not high enough to be remunerative) without getting a chunk of money upfront.

Don't hold your breath for any positive outcome between Boardman an the CN. It's not going to happen. He is just giving political lip service.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/14 10:54 by EDog535.

buffer cars are used in 850/851 all the time for cars to and from the Grove

The_Chief_Way Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> buffer cars are used in 850/851 all the time for
> cars to and from the Grove


Better start adding some more cushion time into the schedule so you can allow for switching in Indianapolis.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And how much is a reroute going to cost? Who will
> pay?
>
>

Hoosier Daddy?

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they take the CN, what if any stops would they
> miss ?

Wouldn't miss any. Dyer is the last stop before Chicago. The Cardinal gets on the CN for the hop to Thornton Jct., just north of Dyer.

Kim Heusel

I don't see this happening. The freight railroads and the ARR have always held that it's Amtrak only when it comes to medium to long distance passenger trains (commuter trains are a different story). Allowing just about anyone with a few old F40's and some ex Amtrak passenger cars to start a service is dangerously close to something referred to as "Open Access". Allow open access passenger trains and your starting down the slippery slope to open access freight operations. The freight railroad in this case (CSXT) would dearly love to see Amtrak and passenger trains go away. The last thing Jacksonville will allow is more operators and more passenger trains.

Will.Not.Happen.

First question, does the Hoosier State use the CN just north of Dyer over to Thornton Junction? I think I saw where that piece of track was sold to CSX.

The logical route to speed up Chicago to Dyer would be to take the PRR mainline south to Grand Junction, use the old NKP connection (A Create project) to the Illinois Central, then the IC to Harvey and over the Intermodal interchange to the GTW (CN or CSX line). Even with that route, you would have slow curves through Grand Junction, over the Intermodal interchange, and the curve in Munster from the GTW to the old Monon.

You also have the crossing of the EJE (now CN) in Dyer. I was in Dyer one day in 2013 and the Hoosier State was held for an hour by the CN due to electrical interlocking difficulties.

The Hoosier State has a much longer route than Megabus which presents a competitive issue. There are no major stops on the route except Indianapolis and La Fayette and those could be served by bus.

I really like passenger trains, but the Hoosier State route is going to have a hard time being competitive with the shorter I 65 route.

rhburn3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I really like passenger trains, but the Hoosier
> State route is going to have a hard time being
> competitive with the shorter I 65 route.


Blah, blah, blah.

When Amtrak actually cared, the Hoosier state had a healthy ridership. Could have it again if anyone cares going forward.

sp5312 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ts1457 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And how much is a reroute going to cost? Who
> will
> > pay?
> >
> >
>
> Hoosier Daddy?

LOL! Very clever!

..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/14 22:50 by darkcloud.