Passenger Trains > New times for Empire Builder at St. Paul Union Depot

New scheduled times for the Amtrak Empire Builder's relocated stop in
the Twin Cities at Union Depot in downtown St. Paul have been
posted.

The new schedules allow only seven or eight minutes dwell at St.
Paul, to detrain a usual 100-150 passengers onto a narrow standard
platform from all along a 10-car Superliner train, get them up a
single escalator (supplemented by one elevator and stairs)
approximately two stories and through a congested and twisting
loading area and out into the public waiting room; then reverse the
escalator and move a usual 125-150 passengers by reverse route down
to the platform and distribute them to the various cars of the
waiting train, sorting out Seattle and Portland Section passengers
(for Train 7).

Meanwhile, an agent must load and unload baggage.

Train 7 is scheduled to depart Red Wing at 852pm (unchanged) and
arrive at St. Paul Union Depot at 1003pm, 28 minutes earlier than the
current scheduled arrival at Midway. It now takes much less than 28
minutes to get from the St. Paul Union Depot site to Midway (four
miles), so it would appear that 1003pm may be optimistic, wiping out
much of the currently existing schedule pad into Midway. Even more
optimistic would be the scheduled departure at 1010pm. The new
schedule provides more than two hours to go 90 miles to St. Cloud.
This must allow a servicing stop at Midway for the train to be
serviced and fueled, a BNSF unit added in winter to Train 7 if Amtrak
can only spare two engines, and the Chicago-MSP setout car (if
operated) switched. St. Paul Union Depot was not designed with the
facilities needed to service a long-distance Amtrak train.

For Train 8, the new schedule has it in at 752 AM (47 minutes later
than into Midway but remember, it has to be serviced there) and out
at 800 AM. This allows somewhat more than three hours from St. Cloud
(444 AM), perhaps to allow for the continued unpredictability of
operations across North Dakota, but producing equally unpredictable
actual arrival times in St. Paul. It is every bit as unlikely ever to
get in and out again in only the allotted eight minutes dwell time.

The best that crews can do today to off-load, sort and re-load
either train at Midway (which being all at platform level, is laid
out in a much better fashion to handle these volumes of passengers)
appears to be about 25 minutes.

The new dwell times at St. Paul appear to be a fiction. Perhaps
whoever set these times has never set foot inside St. Paul Union
Depot (or outside Amtrak Headquarters?).

Evidently planned by stuffed shirts in DC, not anyone who works that train or seen that depot.
What about dispatching issues getting in and out of there, especially now that UP would have to be engaged ?

The whole EB has become 'fiction". Schedules are less than suggestions, they are myths. And...with the increased padding, all that will happen is that they will eat that up and throw up another 4-6 hour delay every night.

You guys are really cynical about that new operation in the Twin Cities.

Why don't you wait and see what actually happens?

I don't see this as negativity, but realism. If there are indeed typical loads of 125-150 people getting off and on that train daily at St. Paul, and the boarding passengers are not moved down onto the platform BEFORE the train arrives in the station, then there will be no way that all of the necessary passengers can be loaded and unloaded in 8 minutes.

I agree about the negativity on this board. It's beginning to sound like my Mother, "Things are never SO bad, but that they can't get worse." She sounds like an optimist compared to some on this board.

The operation of this train is a complete joke. It's pretty easy to be negative when there is so much to be negative about. Its not like this is a random problem. The dam thing is late EVERY day and the new schedule doesn't see to have fixed the problem. Not saying it's all Amtrak's fault. BN and CP are mostly to blame here. But then again, much like fearless leader, Amtrak doesn't seem to be able to exert much influence over a bad situation.

stone23 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys are really cynical about that new
> operation in the Twin Cities.
>
> Why don't you wait and see what actually happens?

Amen!

I don't disagree with much of what Gene said, except for the part about "servicing and fueling." They haven't done any of that at Midway for several years now, unless, I assume, the locomotives run short of fuel. What they do at Midway now is switch cars on and off, which will continue.

I don't think the loading/unloading procedure will be much different at SPUD as Midway. Right now the train pulls in and passenger pile out, as they will do at SPUD, except they will go up stairs and elevators – which are quite large, and of course, this was what was done it its heyday, so nothing new here. At Midway they make outgoing passengers line up at the main door, the conductors check tickets, and its out to the train. I'm sure the same will be done at Midway, except now they will go down the stairs. As far as bags go, I would assume the procedure will be the same as at Midway, but it is a longer distance from the ticket counter to the train, so that will take more time, as Gene correctly said.

All that said, I agree they have set times that are way too short. I'd bet they will soon "tweak" that schedule.

BTW, the SPUD people tell me the station does have head end power and water, but there is no way to switch cars there.

However, while SPUD has its drawbacks, I think most passengers will find it is a much more attractive facility than Midway could ever hope to be, and closer to "civilization" than being in an industrial park.

Amtrak makes much of the "check-in" process at Midway now, which should eliminate the need for seat number assignment/Kindergarten antics at trainside. But physically moving that many people in each direction with luggage and on escalators makes 8 minutes an architects fantasy. 50-80 people on and off at Pittsburgh takes at least 10 minutes.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak makes much of the "check-in" process at
> Midway now, which should eliminate the need for
> seat number assignment/Kindergarten antics at
> trainside. But physically moving that many people
> in each direction with luggage and on escalators
> makes 8 minutes an architects fantasy. 50-80
> people on and off at Pittsburgh takes at least 10
> minutes.


I have a question.....in all stations that I've boarded at (Philadelphia, Baltimore, Trenton, all places in Europe), people are already waiting on platform when the train arrives.

The only exception is New York Penn Station, but all trains have at least a 15 min dwell time there to change crews, plus the platforms are underground and narrow.

Is St. Paul's new platform also narrow? And if yes, then why would a large city main train platform, constructed in the 21st Century, be narrow BY DESIGN???

I guess the new station at St. Paul is obsolete.

The issue will be whether the Amtrak personnel have any commitment to getting the trains in and out on time.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak makes much of the "check-in" process at
> Midway now, which should eliminate the need for
> seat number assignment/Kindergarten antics at
> trainside. But physically moving that many people
> in each direction with luggage and on escalators
> makes 8 minutes an architects fantasy. 50-80
> people on and off at Pittsburgh takes at least 10
> minutes.

I agree with GP. Since riding the EB from CHI-MKE-MSP 30 – 40 times in the last 3-4 years a seven-minute stop at SPUD is very unrealistic. My guess-timate is it will be about 20-30 minutes from arrival to departure.

Yes, at Midway the procedure is; departing passengers line up in the station itself before train arrival. The train stops. Arriving passengers must clear the platform before they let departing pax’s start out. At Midway this can be at least 10 minutes alone.

Once the platform is clear of arriving pax’s someone at the station door checks each departing ticket and tells you which car to go to. Remember westbound there are two sections on this train; SEA and PDX. If you’re not familiar with the consist you won’t have clue where to go. Eastbound at MSP it's not so critical but they still seem to want to divide up the MSP pax's based on destination; MSP to CHI.

Once you reach the train the Car Attendant may want to wait and assign you a seat if you’re in coach. So there is a line up there too. Sleeper Attendants may make you wait to show you to your room.

This process is not just at Midway. It is the same or similar in CHI and MKE. I experienced it in SAS on the Eagle also. In fact I've witnessed a version of it even in Columbus WI.

most people on tise site know me as the voice of reason and with that said my sound opinion thinks it's time for a new station in St. Paul ... the present SPUD facility has already outlived it's usefulness before it has even boarded/detrained a passenger

It seems that SPUD's new design is form WAY over function, and it requires UP dispatchers in Omaha to use it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/14 16:03 by joemvcnj.

All I can say is that it'll get very interesting!

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems that SPUD's new design is form WAY over
> function, and it requires UP dispatchers in Omaha
> to use it.

Amtrak at the SPUD has another issue that’s been discussed in the Twin Cities media and a little on TO since renovation started in 2010. That issue is the need for a second Twin Cities stop (NOT downtown Minneapolis). SPUD is actually located in the far Southeast corner of the Twin Cites. It may be the least densely populated quadrant in the Metro area.

The discussion has been the idea for a stop in the Northwest Quadrant of the Metro area. This quadrant is in an arc from I-394 west to I-35 north. Arguably it includes the densest city/suburban and second most affluent areas in the Metro region. The suggestion has been to use one of the NorthStar Commuter stops, Fridley, Coon Rapids, Anoka.

In the context of this TO discussion a second NW TC stop might relieve some of the pressure on the SPUD as the only TC Amtrak stop. An additional incentive is that these suburban stations do allow long term (10 day), overnight parking in free, patrolled lots.

The suggestion never seemed to generate much traction. Everyone has been so in awe of the remodeled SPUD. Perhaps if SPUD boarding issues blow-up the idea of NW suburban stop might be revived.

However, given all the politics and bureaucracy that Amtrak & BNSF decision making entails heaven knows how long and how many studies it would take to make a second stop happen.

stone23 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys are really cynical about that new
> operation in the Twin Cities.
>
> Why don't you wait and see what actually happens?



What happened was that Amtrak realized they had made a mistake and changed
the 7-minute dwell time to 40 minutes.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Evidently planned by stuffed shirts in DC, not
> anyone who works that train or seen that depot.
> What about dispatching issues getting in and out
> of there, especially now that UP would have to be
> engaged ?

UP isn't involved, BNSF controls the station proper and the east end, CP controls the trackage at west end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/14 17:07 by SOO6617.