Passenger Trains > C&EI Question

While looking at the C&EI historical website, I came across a photo of a C&EI passenger train, but the consist looked like a whose who of other railroad’s equipment. The image is small and in b&w, which doesn’t help with identification, but it looked like there were cars from the Southern in the consist. I know the C&EI handled the Hummingbird and the Georgian for the L&N, but did they trade coaches and sleepers with the SOU as well? Any information on C&EI passenger consists would be greatly appreciated.
TIA,
—Mac

MacBeau Wrote:
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> While looking at the C&EI historical website, I
> came across a photo of a C&EI passenger train, but
> the consist looked like a whose who of other
> railroad’s equipment. The image is small and in
> b&w, which doesn’t help with identification, but
> it looked like there were cars from the Southern
> in the consist. I know the C&EI handled the
> Hummingbird and the Georgian for the L&N, but did
> they trade coaches and sleepers with the SOU as
> well? Any information on C&EI passenger consists
> would be greatly appreciated.
> TIA,
> —Mac

Can you give us a link?

ts1457 Wrote:
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> Can you give us a link?

Opps:
http://www.ceihs.org/photo4.html

MacBeau Wrote:
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> Opps:
> http://www.ceihs.org/photo4.html

I don't see any Southern Railway cars. Looks like you have the New Dixeland that ran every third day from December 16, 1954 through November 29, 1957. The route was Chicago C&EI Evansville L&N Nashville NC&StL Atlanta ACL Jacksonville FEC Miami. It carried sleepers and coaches.

The two stainless steel sleepers appear to be Atlantic Coast Line.

RailThunder Wrote:
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> The two stainless steel sleepers appear to be
> Atlantic Coast Line.

Looks like an RF&P sleeper in there too, as well as a couple of C&Os. I know for a while a C&O sleeper lounge was assigned to the train.

My Nov. 1964 Official Guide doesn't indicate any connecting cars on any schedule to the Southern -- only L&N and ACL. That's probably later than this image, which looks to be early-to-mid 1950's from the small piece visible of what appears to be a Chevy truck just to the left of the lead engine. But I also can't recall any C&EI connections to the Southern at earlier dates. Sorry that my earlier Guides are in storage right now, so I can't check.

Southern, L&N and ACL all had a lot of Pullman-Standard stainless steel cars of similar external appearance. The smooth roofs and corrugated/fluted side panels are reliable spotting features. Likewise, all three roads had some that were all-stainless, and some with painted roofs. Cars 1, 3 and 5 in the image seem to be of this latter type. If any FEC, RF&P or Seaboard cars somehow got mixed in out of the Florida service pool, they could fit as well. All three roads had P-S stainless steel cars. The centered nameboards in 3 and 5 are both representative of practice on both L&N and ACL (and FEC, RF&P and Seaboard), but to be fair, of Southern, too. But I'd guess they are most likely L&N or ACL. The combine is a little different. C&EI perhaps? I seem to recall their whole railroad name spelled out on the nameboard above the windows, which made it quite long, as that nameboard appears to be.

Car 2 looks like a heavyweight, probably Pullman green, maybe a pool car -- looks a little light to be the L&N's dark blue. Number 4 looks like an NYC scheme, which is interesting. And then there's cars 6 and 7, which appear to have a scheme with solid dark color at the window line and above, and stainless below. That doesn't jibe with any L&N, ACL or C&EI scheme that I can recall or find an image of, much less Southern. Although I do have a vague recollection from a video of some ACL cars that had the ACL's solid purple on the top half, and stainless below (but I might be wrong on that). Anyway, they're the real puzzlers of this consist, at least for me.

And amazingly, car 8 looks like an NH American Flyer coach. Seems unbelievable. That's seeing the image really magnified, heavily pixelated and at the outer limit of any clarity.

I tend to disagree on the C&O cars. I'm not seeing any full-length nameboards in a lighter shade, like the full-length yellow nameboards that C&O cars had.

I have seen many images of varied and mixed consists on the C&EI in the long period during which they acted as that very strong connection to Chicago for southeastern roads like L&N and ACL. They regularly had "rainbow" consists in the days well before we started using that term with Amtrak. Much like what the Pennsy used to have for Florida services that it originated in the Northeast.

Hope this helps in some small way. Enjoyed this little puzzler of a research project.

MC
Columbia, Missouri
[Edited once to include RF&P references, NH cars, and state disagreement on C&O cars).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/14 22:24 by ironmtn.

Remember in the winter, a lot pool sleepers could operate, from UP=SP=SFE-GN=NP just like they did Between New York City and Florida.

mundo Wrote:
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> Remember in the winter, a lot pool sleepers could
> operate, from UP=SP=SFE-GN=NP just like they did
> Between New York City and Florida.

The picture looks like summertime. This was a year round train, I believe.

Its to bad there isn't a consist to go with the picture. I zoomed in the picture as much as possible., and it looked like the fourth car could be a Mop car. As MC said in a previous post, the Florida trains from Chicago and New York could have real rainbow consists. Many of the cars were in the Pullman Pool and in the winter months the Florida trains would have expanded consists to handle the additional traffic.

mopacrr Wrote:
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> Its to bad there isn't a consist to go with the
> picture. I zoomed in the picture as much as
> possible., and it looked like the fourth car could
> be a Mop car ...

That's the one I think is an RF&P car, definitely more likely.

Any ideas on where this picture was taken?

Chris.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> mopacrr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Its to bad there isn't a consist to go with the
> > picture. I zoomed in the picture as much as
> > possible., and it looked like the fourth car
> could
> > be a Mop car ...
>
> That's the one I think is an RF&P car, definitely
> more likely.
Well could be, but it looks like there is a metal strip that runs the length of the car and it looks like a gray and crème colors,which is characteristic of Mop cars. Cars ahead and behind look to be ACL/RF&P .

Wasn't the Danville, IL station on a curve like this?

This may not be of much help, but there's a train of an earlier date. I have a Railway Guide for March of 1953, but the C&EI schedule is effective December 11, 1952. Is it possible this could be the Dixie Flagler? It ran on an every third day basis. It was due in Danville between 11:13a and 11:25a. The departure dates are listed from March 2 thru May 31. That could explain everybody walking around in shirtsleeves. The equipment for that train is:

Baggage Dormitory Coach DF 6 Chicago-Miami
6 Cpt, 3 Dr Rm DF95 Chicago-Miami
6 Cpt, 3 Dr Rm DF94 Chicago-Miami
6 Sec, 6 Dbl Bdrm DF93 Chicago-Miami
10 Rmtte, 6 Dbl Bdrm DF92 Chicago-Miami
5 Dbl Bdrm, Bar, Lounge DF91 Chicago-Miami
Diner (no capacity listed-i.e. 36 seat or 48 seat)Chicago-Miami
Coffee Shop Lounge Car Chicago-Jacksonville
6 Sec, 4 Rmtte, 4 Dbl Bdrm DF90 Chicago-Jacksonville
52 Seat Coach DF 5 Chicago-Jacksonville
52 Seat Coach DF 4 Chicago-Miami
52 Seat Coach DF 3 Chicago-Miami
52 Seat Coach DF 2 Chicago-Miami
Tavern-Lounge-Observation Chicago-Miami

Is it possible this could be the train? The first car is a bagg-Dorm-Coach. The others could be sleepers, which some, by the window configuration, could be, although what's throwing me off is the 6 Cpt, 3 Dr Rm. I always thought they were of the early '20's design, unless some were "modernized". To me, the next to the last car might be a diner, but the car behind that one (the last one you see in the picture) I'm not too familiar with the coffee shop cars. And, of course, you can't see the coaches, which are out of sight.

That's funny. When I typed the equipment in, I left space between type of car, designation no. and destination end points. However, when all this showed up, it's crammed together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/14 13:40 by gambletrainman.

gambletrainman Wrote:
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> This may not be of much help, but there's a train
> of an earlier date. I have a Railway Guide for
> March of 1953, but the C&EI schedule is effective
> December 11, 1952. Is it possible this could be
> the Dixie Flagler? It ran on an every third day
> basis. It was due in Danville between 11:13a and
> 11:25a. The departure dates are listed from March
> 2 thru May 31. That could explain everybody
> walking around in shirtsleeves....

The New Dixieland was the successor to the Dixie Flagler when lightweight sleepers replaced the heavyweight sleepers (see the start date in my post above). I wonder if the station is further south than Danville because the shadow seems to be on the east side (or did daylight saving time put the sun on the west side before noon)?

> The equipment for that train is:
>
> Baggage Dormitory Coach DF 6
> Chicago-Miami
> 6 Cpt, 3 Dr Rm DF95
> Chicago-Miami
> 6 Cpt, 3 Dr Rm DF94
> Chicago-Miami
> 6 Sec, 6 Dbl Bdrm DF93
> Chicago-Miami
> 10 Rmtte, 6 Dbl Bdrm DF92
> Chicago-Miami
> 5 Dbl Bdrm, Bar, Lounge DF91
> Chicago-Miami
> Diner (no capacity listed-i.e. 36 seat or 48
> seat)Chicago-Miami
> Coffee Shop Lounge Car
> Chicago-Jacksonville
> 6 Sec, 4 Rmtte, 4 Dbl Bdrm DF90
> Chicago-Jacksonville
> 52 Seat Coach DF 5
> Chicago-Jacksonville
> 52 Seat Coach DF 4
> Chicago-Miami
> 52 Seat Coach DF 3
> Chicago-Miami
> 52 Seat Coach DF 2
> Chicago-Miami
> Tavern-Lounge-Observation
> Chicago-Miami
>
> Is it possible this could be the train? The first
> car is a bagg-Dorm-Coach. The others could be
> sleepers, which some, by the window configuration,
> could be, although what's throwing me off is the 6
> Cpt, 3 Dr Rm. I always thought they were of the
> early '20's design, unless some were "modernized".
> To me, the next to the last car might be a diner,
> but the car behind that one (the last one you see
> in the picture) I'm not too familiar with the
> coffee shop cars. And, of course, you can't see
> the coaches, which are out of sight.

6-3's were built as late as January 1930, but even the ones built earlier were the newer design (3000 series). The key is whether the cars received AC starting around 1934. I'm sure these did. All-room cars like these were popular in the Florida trade. The sleeper lounge was likely a C&O car and I would guess the 10-6 was too (C&O had over-ordered postwar equipment). I'm stumped by where the coffee shop car came from, but many of the lightweight cars could have been FEC from the original seven car, coach streamliner Dixie Flagler. The coffee shop car may have been FEC's "South Bay", a diner-bar-lounge built for New Royal Palm service, but by the 1953/54 season was not being used for that service.

The New Dixieland had a unique configuration lightweight sleeping car built for it. It was the Plan 4196, a 4-roomette, 5-bedroom, 1 compartment, 4-section car. C&EI, ACL, FEC, and NC&StL each got two, and L&N received one.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/14 14:43 by ts1457.

I looked at google maps, and the only curve at Danville coming out of Chicago is from the northwest to the south-south west, which would be the wrong direction.

3rd car is an ACL 10-6 from the C&O,5th car is an ACL PS 10-6.
Can't tell about the others.


Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl,

Cars 6 and 7, the two-tone cars, appear to be NP to me. Disclaimer: the early postwar RI Golden State cars would have the same appearance in black and white, and I am unaware of other schemes that would have this appearance. The photo only shows tow heavyweight cars, while the posted equipment lists show many heavyweights, so I would think this photo would be in the mid to late '50s, before the major downgrading of trains took hold, but before streamlining was completed....a very narrow time frame to be sure. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote:
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> Cars 6 and 7, the two-tone cars, appear to be NP
> to me. Disclaimer: the early postwar RI Golden
> State cars would have the same appearance in black
> and white, and I am unaware of other schemes that
> would have this appearance. The photo only shows
> tow heavyweight cars, while the posted equipment
> lists show many heavyweights, so I would think
> this photo would be in the mid to late '50s,
> before the major downgrading of trains took hold,
> but before streamlining was completed....a very
> narrow time frame to be sure. AA

The New Dixieland was known to run with a C&O 5 DB-lounge and C&O 10-6's were also used a lot off of the C&O. The C&O cars had skirts like the ones in this picture. I don't think NP cars had skirts except for the domes. I think lack of resolution and pixelization has distorted the view of these cars enough to cause doubts, but that is what they are.