Passenger Trains > How to "fix" Train 8's on time performance

How to fix the on time performance of the eastbound Empire Builder...and the poorly-planned
and inadequate eight-minute dwell time at St. Paul?

Increase the dwell time. 2 hours, 44 minutes ought to be enough for the latter. We'll see
about the former. This is in addition to the recovery time between St. Cloud and St. Paul:
over three hours allowed to go 68 miles. The SCD-MSP and MSP-RDW displays are for tomorrow,
Oct. 21 (can't show today's, departure either already past or too close) but the times are
already effective; Chicago scheduled arrival is now 626pm as shown by TODAY's RDW-Chicago display.

Dixielandsoftware.net does not show the new times yet. I have informed them.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/14 08:35 by GenePoon.

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that's great, so now they will be "scheduled" to hit chicago's outbound metra commutes squarely in the face... dave, out.

GenePoon Wrote:
> Dixielandsoftware.net does not show the new times
> yet. I have informed them.>>

They do now. Big hic-ups for station times shown on the individual No. 8s that are currently running today.

Thanks for the updates.
Dave in Msla



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/14 09:01 by monaddave.

I was looking at time next weekend (Oct 25) and the weekend after that (Nov 1) from St. Paul to Chicago. They show normal scheduled departure time from St. Paul (7:59), and arrival in Chicago (15:55). Perhaps there is a temporary delay on weekdays to accomodate CP trackwork?

Telling the people what's going on would be a good start. This includes
passengers on the affected trains.

Response received...not from Amtrak or from NARP but from Minnesota ARP (which is NOT
affiliated with NARP and is thus perhaps more independent and able to say?).

The revised schedule is planned through Thursday only, for a work window on CP.

Current plans are that the work will be done and the schedule will revert to an
eight-minute dwell time at St. Paul on Friday.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/14 11:37 by GenePoon.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Please stop crying wolf. Please?

If you want to operate these trains closer to schedule, stop losing three to five minutes at every stop. Boarding even one or two passengers at intermediate stops takes three to five minutes as the conductor, assistant conductor and car attendant all confer about each passengers and their tickets. Lose two to four minutes at each of twenty stops equals an hour. Don't believe me? Go down to the depot and watch the show! It's embarrassing to me.

TIOGA PASS

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar

In Germany, and I assume other European countries, passengers board and de-board themselves. Stops are efficient, seemingly safe, and efficient. Yes, there are high-level platforms and no steps to deal with. How much would it cost to put high-level platforms in the larger stations? Wait Superliners don't need platforms, but often passengers are stacked up by the narrow stair case that both must use.

In most trains tickets show a car number.

Also when train carries cars to multi destinations, (splitting the train) The car number or if no car number, a platform posting shows where to wait for the proper car. Non of this running up and down train to find proper car.

aronco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to operate these trains closer to
> schedule, stop losing three to five minutes at
> every stop. Boarding even one or two passengers
> at intermediate stops takes three to five minutes
> as the conductor, assistant conductor and car
> attendant all confer about each passengers and
> their tickets. Lose two to four minutes at each
> of twenty stops equals an hour. Don't believe me?
> Go down to the depot and watch the show! It's
> embarrassing to me.
>
> TIOGA PASS

It can be done. I was on a 12 hour late leaving Seattle train about 6 years ago. The crew made some record breaking stops. They announced stations rather early and announced for passengers to move to the lower level and be ready to depart. When the train stopped, passengers got off with their luggage in hand in about a minute and boarding passengers were "dragged" into the coach and the doors were shut and "toot toot." We made one stop were only two or three people got off and the wheels were turning in about 45 seconds. It took a bit longer as some of the larger station and we had some longer stops for crew change and servicing the train. Forty years ago I was in Korea. The trains ran ON TIME. I think we were 15 seconds late at one station on the route. They got the passenger on and off like clockwork.

John

wa4umr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aronco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you want to operate these trains closer to
> > schedule, stop losing three to five minutes at
> > every stop. Boarding even one or two
> passengers
> > at intermediate stops takes three to five
> minutes
> > as the conductor, assistant conductor and car
> > attendant all confer about each passengers and
> > their tickets. Lose two to four minutes at
> each
> > of twenty stops equals an hour. Don't believe
> me?
> > Go down to the depot and watch the show! It's
> > embarrassing to me.
> >
> > TIOGA PASS
>
> It can be done. I was on a 12 hour late leaving
> Seattle train about 6 years ago. The crew made
> some record breaking stops. They announced
> stations rather early and announced for passengers
> to move to the lower level and be ready to depart.
> When the train stopped, passengers got off with
> their luggage in hand in about a minute and
> boarding passengers were "dragged" into the coach
> and the doors were shut and "toot toot." We made
> one stop were only two or three people got off and
> the wheels were turning in about 45 seconds. It
> took a bit longer as some of the larger station
> and we had some longer stops for crew change and
> servicing the train. Forty years ago I was in
> Korea. The trains ran ON TIME. I think we were
> 15 seconds late at one station on the route. They
> got the passenger on and off like clockwork.
>
> John

Does the crew scan tickets on the platform for #8's passengers? That's been fingered as a reason for some delays on the Lake Shore.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-
> Does the crew scan tickets on the platform for
> #8's passengers? That's been fingered as a reason
> for some delays on the Lake Shore.


This is a pernicious problem that needs to be stopped. At Galesburg for #5 all passengers are made to line up the walkway to the platform (coaches to the right, sleepers to the left) and have their tickets scanned, and then walk to their car. Oddly this practice is not in place for #3, which can get in and out of town in several minutes less than #5.

The difference at GBB between 3 and 5 may be so they can check tickets to make sure no passengers for 3 get on 5. 5 should be there about an hour before 3 and passengers may be confused, or not paying attention to which train is in the station, especially if 5 is late.

Temporary schedule to accommodate bridge pier replacement near Weaver siding.

Current low oil prices will cure the Empire Builder's timekeeping and faster than you think. The oil and gas coming from the Bakken costs around $101.00 a barrel to produce, right now oil is in the mid to low $80's. For whatever reason the Saudis and much of the rest of OPEC opened the flood gates. Is it being done at the request of the US and Great Britain to damage the Russian economy? Or to crush US energy production? It really doesn't matter, while it will hurt Russia, the Russians are accustomed to austerity and toughing things out, on the other hand the highly leveraged capitol intensive pyramid schemes being run in fields like the Eagle Ford and Bakken will crash fast.

to quote William Kuntsler from his ClusterF&^k Nation blog,

"The oil price fell on its face so hard it crashed through the floorboards. One particular idiot at NPR wrote that this means peak oil was a hoax (Predictions Of ‘Peak Oil’ Production Prove Slippery). I guess she didn’t notice that the junk financing associated with shale oil capex is also dissolving like the poor late Thomas Eric Duncan’s circulatory system. That is, expect a whole lot less drilling in the Bakken and the Eagle Ford in the months ahead, and a substantial fall in production. Unless the US government finds a back door to shovel money at shale (a possibility considering the crucial myth of “Saudi America” to Wall Street psychology), the investment will not be there for the relentless drilling and re-drilling. As other savants on the web have pointed out, it’s not so much that the world is awash in surplus oil as the world is a’glut in people too broke to buy oil. And anyway, the shale oil companies have never made a buck at any price on anything but the real estate shenanigans entailed in their racket, buying and selling leases and so forth, just more paper games. In short, there is plenty of reason to believe that the shale endeavor may founder altogether at $80-a-barrel."

So the problem will be self correcting. This is a fact the BNSF has always understood, the life expectancy of these fields is very short, the railroad will not spend a dime of it's own or shareholders money to sink money into capacity that will become excess capacity before the bill is paid.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/14 07:43 by GettingShort.

GettingShort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Current low oil prices will cure the Empire
> Builder's timekeeping and faster than you think.
> The oil and gas coming from the Bakken costs
> around $101.00 a barrel to produce, right now that
> price is in the mid to low $80s. For whatever
> reason the Saudis and much of the rest of OPEC
> opened the flood gates. Is it being done at the
> request of the US and Great Britain to damage the
> Russian economy? Or to crush US energy production?
> It really doesn't matter, while it will hurt
> Russia, the Russians are accustomed to austerity
> and toughing things out, on the other hand the
> highly leveraged capitol intensive pyramid schemes
> being run in fields like the Eagle Ford and
> Bakken will crash fast.
>
> to quote William Kuntsler from his ClusterF&^k
> Nation blog,
>
> "The oil price fell on its face so hard it crashed
> through the floorboards. One particular idiot at
> NPR wrote that this means peak oil was a hoax
> (Predictions Of ‘Peak Oil’ Production Prove
> Slippery). I guess she didn’t notice that the
> junk financing associated with shale oil capex is
> also dissolving like the poor late Thomas Eric
> Duncan’s circulatory system. That is, expect a
> whole lot less drilling in the Bakken and the
> Eagle Ford in the months ahead, and a substantial
> fall in production. Unless the US government finds
> a back door to shovel money at shale (a
> possibility considering the crucial myth of
> “Saudi America” to Wall Street psychology),
> the investment will not be there for the
> relentless drilling and re-drilling. As other
> savants on the web have pointed out, it’s not so
> much that the world is awash in surplus oil as the
> world is a’glut in people too broke to buy oil.
> And anyway, the shale oil companies have never
> made a buck at any price on anything but the real
> estate shenanigans entailed in their racket,
> buying and selling leases and so forth, just more
> paper games. In short, there is plenty of reason
> to believe that the shale endeavor may founder
> altogether at $80-a-barrel."
>
> So the problem will be self correcting. This is a
> fact the BNSF has always understood, the life
> expectancy of these fields is very short, the
> railroad will not spend a dime of it's own or
> shareholders money to sink money into capacity
> that will become excess capacity before the bill
> is paid.


where's the $101 cost number for oil in the Bakken coming from? That's considerably higher than most production numbers I've seen, which are in the $70 - $80 range, plus $10-$12 for terminal and rail. With the Bakken discount off WTI, many Bakken producers are probably losing some money. Permian and Eagle Ford, probably still in the money.

One real challenge for railroads is the temporary (?) convergence of the US price and the Brent price for oil. There's only a $3 spread with Brent right now, which could be attractive to places like PBF Delaware City, Sunoco in Westville NJ, Phillips 66 in Linden NJ, etc.

Not saying that it will happen, but if I could lock in Brent for six months at $85 plus $6 ship, I'd seriously consider it.

< The difference at GBB between 3 and 5 may be so they can check tickets to make sure no passengers for 3 get on 5. 5 should be there about an hour before 3 and passengers may be confused, or not paying attention to which train is in the station, especially if 5 is late. >

That are still breaking company rules by scanning e-tickets on the platform, and it should be reported to top management. Ask their destination as they are getting on, but that is all.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> where's the $101 cost number for oil in the Bakken
> coming from? That's considerably higher than most
> production numbers I've seen, which are in the $70
> - $80 range, plus $10-$12 for terminal and rail.
> With the Bakken discount off WTI, many Bakken
> producers are probably losing some money. Permian
> and Eagle Ford, probably still in the money.
>
> One real challenge for railroads is the temporary
> (?) convergence of the US price and the Brent
> price for oil. There's only a $3 spread with
> Brent right now, which could be attractive to
> places like PBF Delaware City, Sunoco in Westville
> NJ, Phillips 66 in Linden NJ, etc.
>
> Not saying that it will happen, but if I could
> lock in Brent for six months at $85 plus $6 ship,
> I'd seriously consider it.

Here's one example, there are many others that look at not just the production costs but also the capital costs.

The CBR theories--not sure what to make of them. Increasing dwell time? This has been done for years and the carriers simply continue to "use it up." So add another 2-3 hours into every schedule every 2-3 years, then, keep on adding in more and more "Dwell Time." Not a winning strategy! Within X-Amount of years, then you'll need an extra pair of trainsets to protect every route, quite simply. And to be simplistic: "This is no way to run a railroad."