Passenger Trains > Further information on: 3 killed trying to beat Amtrak

The story of the three young adults that were killed west of Kalamazoo, Michigan, last Tuesday, November 18, 2014, has bothered me since I first heard, and then read, about the incident.

The mother of the 19 year old, who owned the van, was interviewed in the media the next day, or so. She said that her son and his girlfriend were going out, and were going to meet another male friend. But, she says that the third person, the one that witnesses said was driving the van, was not the person that her son mentioned he was going to see. And, she says she hasn't a clue why that person, and not her son, was driving. She also said she had no clue why they would be on that side of Kalamazoo because they were from the east side of town.

Also, there were comments from some friends, that knew all three of them, and one made mention that the person driving was known to be a very impatient driver.

I drove over that way on Saturday evening just before dark. It was raining and nasty weather. A friend and I went over there today, Sunday, between 3:30 and 5:00 P.M. I wanted to see how fast the trains traveled on that particular piece of rail. For information only, the tracks are perfectly straight for over one mile in each direction from the South 11th Street crossing. It is single track there with the control point going to double track through the city of Kalamazoo about a mile, or maybe two, east of this crossing.

The accident happened around 4:30 P.M. last Tuesday. Amtrak #352 is due into Kalamazoo at 4:08 P.M. Sunday's train was late, we never did see it.

I took about 8 minutes of video out the front window of my truck, with the camera positioned above the steering wheel, hoping to duplicate what the van driver saw. I edited it down, so it would fit here on TO, and it's split up into 5 short segments. There is no sound. You don't want to hear me and my friend talking while driving around.

What you will see is this:
1) - Heading North on South 11th Street approaching the Railroad Tracks and KL Avenue.
As you can see South 11th Street is a two lane paved road with one lane for traffic in each direction, with plenty of warning signs posted. Just past the Railroad Tracks the northbound lanes of South 11th Street split to form two lanes, one for left turns at KL Avenue, and one for right turns at KL Avenue. I'm not sure if you can see it that easily, but there is only room for two average sized vehicles on South 11th Street between the railroad tracks and KL Avenue. We have Right-Turn-On-Red, so any northbound vehicles that made it past the railroad tracks, but were stopped for the Traffic Signal at KL Avenue and were turning right on KL Avenue could turn right and continue on toward their destination. Left turn vehicles would have to wait for the Traffic Signal to change.

2) - Heading East on KL Avenue and turning South onto South 11th Street.

3) - Heading North on South 11th Street approaching the Railroad Tracks and KL Avenue.
Sitting through one complete cycle of the traffic signals.

4) - Heading West on KL Avenue and turning South onto South 11th Street.

5) - Heading North on South 11th Street approaching the Railroad Tracks and KL Avenue.
Stopped behind 3, maybe 5, other vehicles. It's difficult to see how many other vehicles are ahead of me, but after the lights change you can see 5 vehicles turning ahead of my vehicle. But I think that the first two were stopped between the tracks and KL Avenue and were stopped for the traffic signal on KL Avenue.

Notice that the entire length of South 11th Street is marked with a double yellow line indicating "No Passing" in both directions. And that there are two sets of Highway Traffic Signals, one at the tracks and one for KL Avenue, in addition to a set of Railroad Flashers and Gates to block each lane of traffic.

It was noted by witnesses to the incident that the van pulled out and passed several vehicles that were stopped, both for the Traffic Signals and the Railroad Flashers and Gates, and then tried to maneuver around the downed gates to get through the traffic there.

Also, last Tuesday we had snow, several inches of it in the Battle Creek, Kalamazoo area, so I will say that the driver "may not" have seen the double yellow lines indicating no passing, but at 4:30 P.M. it was still daylight and seeing the Traffic Signals and Railroad Lights and Gates was a no brainer. He passed stopped cars to try to get through them.

Also, just from my two short visits there, there is a LOT of traffic from all directions on both South 11th Street and KL Avenue.

These types of accidents/incidents really bother me. This individual made a decision to 1) Improper Passing; 2) Fail to stop for a Traffic Signal; 3) Fail to stop for operating Railroad Flashers and Gates. It makes me wonder what driving laws and ordinances did this fellow chose to regularly disregard at locations where there were no railroad tracks but probably plenty of other vehicles?

I just don't know what to say about this.

Ron

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Thanks for the detailed update. Clearly there is a rest of the story still to be learned, if ever. And a two things for that ****** "Darwin award crowd"....is enough of your crowing EVER enough? And, have any of you anything else to say? AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

I also wanted to add one thing here with these two photographs. Both Highway Traffic Signals for South 11th Street have cameras mounted on them pointed toward the south, while the two Highway Traffic Signals on KL Drive have none.


Ron



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/19 10:59 by Ron.

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Ron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also wanted to add one thing here with these two
> photographs. Both Highway Traffic Signals for
> South 11th Street have cameras mounted on them
> pointed toward the south, while the two Highway
> Traffic Signals on KL Drive nave none.
>
>
> Ron

Generally, those are not cameras but sensors that activate the traffic signals.

Oh, I think we know. Passing cars going the speed limit (25 mph) on a 2 lane road with limited sight lines and curves. Passing cars on the right on a limited access road - using the shoulder, during construction (where speed limit is 45 mph) when traffic is going 60 mph. Blowing through stop signs, in shopping centers, at driveway exits, on streets -just about anywhere there are stop signs, actually. Extending a yellow indication at busy intersections, going through a red light well after the yellow has changed. Turning left from the middle lane of a 3 lane + dedicated turn lane - because the left turn lane has arrows (activated only at the beginning of the full cycle) and turning in front of 1 lane going straight, and the stopped turning lane - not to mention three lanes of opposing traffic. These events happened in my sight in the last week - and I no longer drive more than 100 miles in a week.

If we were honest, we see these guys all the time. Going 90 in a 65 mph zone (and let's be honest here too - when you see these guys, they are invariably pushing heavy iron - Suburbans, Expeditions, Hummers,full sized pickups, etc.). This past summer, a woman driving a minivan was killed when a deer jumped off an over pass on the toll way and right into her front windshield. She & kids died. Here's the interesting part - she was going over 70 mph in a 45 mph construction zone, using a hand held call phone (using a cell at any time in a construction zone - hand held or blue tooth is illegal in this state) - they established all this and reported it matter of factly. Saying how unlucky she was, "think of the odds - 70 mph, the deer jumping at just the "right" time of an overpass, etc. etc.". Yeah, unlucky. That's what we call people going 25 mph over the speed limit, chatting to a friend (also established) while kids are in the car. That's manslaughter at best, murder, easily. Child endangerment. But no one said a thing about the speeding that killed her, it was the unlucky deer strike. Not realizing she'd have been 1/4 mile (if that) up the road when the deer leaped - and safe (if not shaken) - had she been 10 mph over the speed limit instead of 25.

You often hear "you can't fix stupid" on this forum. I wouldn't say they were stupid, just unthinking - of others. Lack of empathy, a sense of self import, and as the song goes "in a hurry to get things done" - with no idea why.

The problem is they take others with them.

Ron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It makes me wonder what driving laws and
> ordinances did this fellow chose to regularly
> disregard at locations where there were no
> railroad tracks but probably plenty of other
> vehicles?
> Ron

rswebber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, I think we know. Passing cars going the speed
> limit (25 mph) on a 2 lane road with limited sight
> lines and curves. Passing cars on the right on a
> limited access road - using the shoulder, during
> construction (where speed limit is 45 mph) when
> traffic is going 60 mph. Blowing through stop
> signs, in shopping centers, at driveway exits, on
> streets -just about anywhere there are stop signs,
> actually. Extending a yellow indication at busy
> intersections, going through a red light well
> after the yellow has changed. Turning left from
> the middle lane of a 3 lane + dedicated turn lane
> - because the left turn lane has arrows (activated
> only at the beginning of the full cycle) and
> turning in front of 1 lane going straight, and the
> stopped turning lane - not to mention three lanes
> of opposing traffic. These events happened in my
> sight in the last week - and I no longer drive
> more than 100 miles in a week.
>
> If we were honest, we see these guys all the time.
> Going 90 in a 65 mph zone (and let's be honest
> here too - when you see these guys, they are
> invariably pushing heavy iron - Suburbans,
> Expeditions, Hummers,full sized pickups, etc.).
> This past summer, a woman driving a minivan was
> killed when a deer jumped off an over pass on the
> toll way and right into her front windshield. She
> & kids died. Here's the interesting part - she
> was going over 70 mph in a 45 mph construction
> zone, using a hand held call phone (using a cell
> at any time in a construction zone - hand held or
> blue tooth is illegal in this state) - they
> established all this and reported it matter of
> factly. Saying how unlucky she was, "think of the
> odds - 70 mph, the deer jumping at just the
> "right" time of an overpass, etc. etc.". Yeah,
> unlucky. That's what we call people going 25 mph
> over the speed limit, chatting to a friend (also
> established) while kids are in the car. That's
> manslaughter at best, murder, easily. Child
> endangerment. But no one said a thing about the
> speeding that killed her, it was the unlucky deer
> strike. Not realizing she'd have been 1/4 mile
> (if that) up the road when the deer leaped - and
> safe (if not shaken) - had she been 10 mph over
> the speed limit instead of 25.
>
> You often hear "you can't fix stupid" on this
> forum. I wouldn't say they were stupid, just
> unthinking - of others. Lack of empathy, a sense
> of self import, and as the song goes "in a hurry
> to get things done" - with no idea why.
>
> The problem is they take others with them.
>
> Ron Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It makes me wonder what driving laws and
> > ordinances did this fellow chose to regularly
> > disregard at locations where there were no
> > railroad tracks but probably plenty of other
> > vehicles?
> > Ron


So in that example you are claiming the women knew the deer would jump from the bridge and purposely drove into it, intentionally killing her kids? Cause that's what "murder, easily" is. What did ANY of that have to do with a van racing a train to the tracks to beat it? I don't believe we need scientific studies done to show how impatient people are...

Posted from Android

Younger drivers are more and more impatient these days. RSWEBBER sort of summed it up. And RON, you did a great job of documenting the intersection and the grade crossing. Passing at a railroad crossing with stop lights, flashing railroad lights, and gates down is just about a death wish. Passing other cars on the wrong side of the road is the icing on the cake. Part of the problem is that some people just think the rules do not apply to them. I'm an NRA Rifle Instructor. I use that rating to teach Boy Scouts and youth to shoot safely, along with a few adults occasionally. I teach at our local Boy Scout Camp. There is a sign where you enter the range saying you must have permission to enter the range. The youth seem to understand this but the adults often think, "That's not for me, it's for the kids." I have to remind them that it is for everyone, including me if I'm not the person in charge. The worst violator I ever encountered was an adult. Rule #1 on the range is to "Always keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction." Simple enough. Just keep it pointed down range and not at anything that would be hurt if it went off. We finished a round and everyone was walking off the range and one of the adults that was with his child grabbed the rifle, started walking off the range, waving all over the place. He got rather upset when I grabbed it out of his hands and told him that you don't disregard rule #1 on this range no matter who you are or how old you are.

Driving around a line of cars that were already waiting for a train to pass is just plain stupid. A train traveling at 90 MPH is only going to delay you about a minute. You get stopped at some traffic lights you wait longer than that. Does that mean you can pull out and try to beat that 18 wheeler? Compared to a train, that's child's play.

John

It was just mentioned to me on another site, information that I knew but had forgotten about when I posted the above information.

The driver of the van was driving on a suspended drivers license for failure to appear in court for some previous traffic tickets/charges.


Ron

Some drones making comments on one of the newspaper sites mentioned that the
involved vehicle was going downhill and that the driver may have been unable
to stop, requiring that he pass the other vehicles to avoid hitting them.

THAT MANY VEHICLES? Bullsh!t.

If he was going that fast, he was too fast for conditions anyway. And the
hill is not THAT steep unless one is driving WAY too fast or is distracted.

I'm surprised that nobody brought up the possibility, uh, make that "lame excuse"
of brake failure, which when claimed by a driver in a crash, usually means that
the brakes "couldn't stop the car soon enough" because it was already going
too fast.

As for "Darwin Effect"...perhaps the factors affecting natural selection
also include the ability to wisely select one's friends.

No - not the deer - going 25mph faster that the legal speed limit (with zero tolerance in those areas), using a cell phone - with a load of kids, would reasonably be called endangerment at least. Regardless of the cause - deer, train, truck, what have you - she was driving unsafely with kids in the car.

What has any of this to do with the van? EVERYTHING - that you can't see that is just the problem. You can't see how driving fast in the wrong place can cause death. And if you are the driver, and if you intentionally flaunt the traffic laws and conditions, and if you have passengers, yes, that could safely be called murder. Just like him though, you can't seem to understand causation and personal responsibility.

NSClevelandLine Wrote:

>
> So in that example you are claiming the women knew
> the deer would jump from the bridge and purposely
> drove into it, intentionally killing her kids?
> Cause that's what "murder, easily" is. What did
> ANY of that have to do with a van racing a train
> to the tracks to beat it? I don't believe we need
> scientific studies done to show how impatient
> people are...
>
> Posted from Android

One need look no further than their own steering wheel to see that we've all become complacent in our driving habits. Just stop and count the number of red light runners during your comings and goings to the supermarket, or those who push the limits of left turn arrows, not to mention those who travel in excess of the posted speed limits. Here in Costa Mesa I see those things daily. The arterial near my house is posted for 40 mph. 50 is more the norm, and not a few people are doing 60 or more. Drivers routinely run signals that aren't just 'pink'--the green is already on for cross traffic. People have been trained to push the limits, knowing there's an all-red phase. Similarly, I think that the 25 seconds or so from the time the crossing signals activate until a train is seen is a bit excessive, and prompts people to make rash decisions. Just like the van meeting the train, we see horrific collisions (none of them are 'accidents') at my intersection caused by people whose timing was off.

I'm not excusing what happened. The driver broke several laws and tragically he and his friends paid the ultimate price. Just saying that in our efforts to bend over backwards in the name of safety, we may have inadvertently made things a little less safe at times.

I wonder how many of us commenting have done some of the same things I've listed above? I'll be the first to raise my hand..

A flashing red traffic light means the same as a stop sign - rolling stop and proceed. Perhaps some think that is true at grade-crossings also.

AND using today's mentality about always blaming someone else ---I am shocked we don't have hordes of protesters at the sight claiming the trains used "excessive force".

I don't debate the endangerment but when you ignorantly throw around terms that you obviously haven't researched the definition of, it grinds my gears. Now let's touch on your rant about nothing. Had the original driver who ran the gates been recklessly speeding and didn't have time to stop, I would understand your rant. From what I understand the guy drove around other cars into opposing lanes of traffic only to get hit by the train. He wasn't distracted while driving, he just didn't care about the laws! It's called disobedience. Being undisciplined. Your rant about a distracted driver who was speeding has little to nothing to do with this. At all.





rswebber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No - not the deer - going 25mph faster that the
> legal speed limit (with zero tolerance in those
> areas), using a cell phone - with a load of kids,
> would reasonably be called endangerment at least.
> Regardless of the cause - deer, train, truck, what
> have you - she was driving unsafely with kids in
> the car.
>
> What has any of this to do with the van?
> EVERYTHING - that you can't see that is just the
> problem. You can't see how driving fast in the
> wrong place can cause death. And if you are the
> driver, and if you intentionally flaunt the
> traffic laws and conditions, and if you have
> passengers, yes, that could safely be called
> murder. Just like him though, you can't seem to
> understand causation and personal responsibility.
>
>
> NSClevelandLine Wrote:
>
> >
> > So in that example you are claiming the women
> knew
> > the deer would jump from the bridge and
> purposely
> > drove into it, intentionally killing her kids?
> > Cause that's what "murder, easily" is. What did
> > ANY of that have to do with a van racing a
> train
> > to the tracks to beat it? I don't believe we
> need
> > scientific studies done to show how impatient
> > people are...
> >
> > Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/14 13:37 by NSClevelandLine.

You obviously have let this incident upset you and l would suggest you accept the fact that regardless of who was driving their actions resulted in three deaths. Impatience ,not paying attention or just plain stupidity trying to beat a train. I have seen many of these accidents l simply mark it up to bad choices on the part of the driver. Unfortunately innocent people have to pay the price for his actions. Don't dwell on this accident they happen and will continue to happen. After a while as in all traffic accidents you see enough of them and harden up up to the tragic results.

In this day and age, people thumb their nose at all sorts of laws, many times with impunity.

Look at our immigration laws as an example.

Why would traffic laws somehow miraculously be exempt?

well, since the conversation has drifted to the discussion of bad drivers, those who purposely disregard traffic laws, you might be interested in this read from the same web site that I cited the original story from, mlive.com, which is a composite of online newspapers from several Michigan cities. on the mlive.com "kalamazoo" page, there is a story today of another purposely bad driver, strangely similar (who disregards all the laws of the road) to our subject of last week's vehicular homicide at the RR tracks, caught on YouTube and turned into the Kalamazoo Co. Sheriff Dept who HAVE assigned a deputy to investigate the case. The story of this driver and his antics on youtube are read at: <http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/11/youtube_of_kalamazoo-area_dail.html#incart_river&gt;

In part:

KALAMAZOO, MI -- When Kalamazoo County Undersheriff Pali Matyas viewed the YouTube video flooding his email box Monday morning, he knew immediately what he was seeing. "I have seen this guy myself on Ninth Street and ON Avenue, by Arbys," Matyas said. "You can hear the car going by, it sounds like a sick lawnmower," he said. As he witnessed the driver cut off other drivers a few weeks ago, Matyas said, "I thought we'll find him in a ditch somewhere."

Instead, he found a 23-minute video collage of what appears to be the same driver running red lights, using left turn lanes to cut off advancing traffic, and committing other traffic offenses.

The creator of the video noted in the Nov. 9 post that "this has been going on for over 2 years now."

Matyas said Monday morning that an officer in Oshtemo Township has been assigned to investigate the matter; the video includes clear shots of the car's license plate. If the driver is charged and found guilty of reckless driving, a misdemeanor "that's a chunk of change," Matyas said, including a big fine and several points on the driver's license. Worse still Matyas said, "when insurance companies see that they drop you like a hot potato or jack up the rates so much there is no point in driving anymore. It's right up there with drunk driving."

Although the YouTube video certainly appears to include damning evidence, and it is not necessary for police to witness every infraction to begin an investigation, Matyas said a full investigation will take place. "You take (YouTube) at face value an you usually end up on the short end of the stick," he said. "But we're on it."

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chico

Please guys, I'd really appreciate a bit of reality in discussions such as this. Stupidity, defined as an organic Lack of INTELLIGENCE simply is not the issue. What members here insist on terming stupid, is in actuality poor judgement, though sometimes impulsiveness may be the root cause of those crashes that so upset members here. Many brilliant people have terrible judgement....sometimes called common sense.....and many developmentally delayed people have excellent judgement, while seriously lacking in intelligence. The use of such misinformation seriously harms the credibility of the points you are trying to make....I am speaking generally here, not addressing any particular individual. It is my opinion that many of those I address now are actually intelligent people, though their posts make them appear ignorant and prejudiced.....and right now I am tempted to use the "stupid" word, but it would be an incorrect application of the word. Maybe if we posters were better editors, there would not be so many in your face battles here on TO. End of rant, go ahead and fire up those torches, sigh. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A flashing red traffic light means the same as a
> stop sign - rolling stop and proceed. Perhaps some
> think that is true at grade-crossings also.

That's a FULL stop, then proceed when safe. A rolling stop could get you a ticket in California.

On a crossing gate the left-most red light is always solid-never flashing. The lowered gate means 'Road Closed', and the solid red is the same as a red traffic signal. Stop and remain stopped until it goes out.

everybody has/had made or will make bad decisions at some point in their life ... some like myself have made more than my fair share of bad decisions and some of those have COST me dearly financially and/or emotionally ...

it's within the degree of context that bad decision is made that determines the severity of the consequences

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/14 12:32 by Out_Of_Service.