Passenger Trains > Engineer Of Amtrak Train 188's Grueling Work Schedule Scrutinized

excerpt from article:

"Railroad Workers United says Wednesday that Brandon Bostian's shift May 12 had been grueling and his rest break was shortened by equipment-related delays on his earlier train to Washington."

full article here:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Brandon-Bostian-Amtrak-Unions-Derailment-Shift-Grueling-304497361.html

Posted from Android

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> excerpt from article:
>
> "Railroad Workers United says Wednesday that
> Brandon Bostian's shift May 12 had been grueling
> and his rest break was shortened by
> equipment-related delays on his earlier train to
> Washington."

And, once again, we have Rail Workers United being misidentified as being a union.  They are not a union, they are a peer advocacy group.  One would think the leaders of RWU would learn that there are times where being first in line to yell and scream, doesn't always help your cause.

If he was indeed fatigued, he could have marked off.  Zumwalt said he had only been on that particular run a few weeks. 
Low seniority runs often are at odd hours and with crummy layovers.  It was the same in the bus business. 
You gotta pay your dues, and even then there are precious few runs that come close to what people view as a 9 to 5 job.
I wasn't aware of that tightening of turnaround times.  Where was the Union in those negotiations?

Sometimes when you burn your layoff days while attempting to have some form of life outside of work you cannot afford to lay it down when you really need to (not rested, sick, family emergency, etc), for fear of busting the attendance policy and getting a certified letter in the mail.

Just like driving buses, right? You know the whole kangaroo court thing?

Yeah......buses.

Posted from Android

DG .
Unknown, US



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/15 17:24 by trkspd.

trkspd Wrote:
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> Sometimes when you burn your layoff days while
> attempting to have some form of life outside of
> work you cannot afford to lay it down when you
> really need to (not rested, sick, family
> emergency, etc), for fear of busting the
> attendance policy and getting a certified letter
> in the mail.
>
> Just like driving buses, right? You know the whole
> kangaroo court thing?
>
> Yeah......buses.
>
> Posted from Android

You got that right!  Especially with the extra board!  When you have your day off, you regretabbly are the first to mark up the following day. 
Oten times they scheduled you late the day before your rest day, because that way they didn't waste a fresh driver needed the next mornig.
I called it "bookended"    So you got done too late to go out the 1st night, and then you had to go to bed early, supposedly, on your off day.  Yeah....buses

It has been reported elsewhere that his assignment the last few weeks was a M-F scheduled day job, 95% of railroad workers would love to have that schedule.

Acela 2121, go on duty at Penn Station 13:20, depart 14:00, scheduled arrival in DC 16:48,  2:48 scheduled running time, less than 4 hours on duty

1:27 scheduled break time

Regional 188 depart DC 19:10, scheduled arrival NY Penn 22:34,  3:24 scheduled running time, about 4 more hours on duty

6:12  total scheduled running time, on duty after lunch, home before midnight, sleep all night, 2 weekend off days, same work schedule each day.  Didn't the NTSB spokesman say that Bostian when interviewed did not report being fatigued before or during the trip?

Fatigue is a huge issue, probably the biggest for most railroad crews, so a misleading article crying 'Wolf!' isn't helpful. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/15 18:30 by darkcloud.

i stated this previously ... he had been working train 198 before he got bumped 2 weeks prior to taking the 188 job ...

Posted from Android

darkcloud Wrote:
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> It has been reported elsewhere that his assignment
> the last few weeks was a M-F scheduled day job,
> 95% of railroad workers would love to have that
> schedule.

The schedule was/is a Friday-Tuesday schedule working various trains on different days.  The 2121-188 flip was just Monday and Tuesday.

Railroad Workers United?
I'd believe more from a bona fide labor organization.

mp51w Wrote:
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> If he was indeed fatigued, he could have marked
> off.  Zumwalt said he had only been on that
> particular run a few weeks. 
> Low seniority runs often are at odd hours and with
> crummy layovers.  It was the same in the bus
> business. 
> You gotta pay your dues, and even then there are
> precious few runs that come close to what people
> view as a 9 to 5 job.
> I wasn't aware of that tightening of turnaround
> times.  Where was the Union in those
> negotiations?

Work rosters aren't usually something negotiated with the Unions. They might have some input, but management makes the final decision.

Posted from iPhone

>If he was indeed fatigued, he could have marked off.

Doesn't sound like you ever worked for an RR, let alont tried to lay off at your out-of-town point.

>You gotta pay your dues, and even then there are precious few runs that come close to what people view as a 9 to 5 job.

True, but what do you do when the company has a program of making job conditions worse and worse and worse (and reduing the earings in the process)?

>I wasn't aware of that tightening of turnaround times. 

Very recent thing.

>Where was the Union in those negotiations?

Does the word "stooge" ring any bells?

>Acela 2121, go on duty at Penn Station 13:20, depart 14:00, scheduled arrival in DC 16:48,  2:48 scheduled running time, less than 4 hours on duty 1:27 scheduled break time

>Regional 188 depart DC 19:10, scheduled arrival NY Penn 22:34,  3:24 scheduled running time, about 4 more hours on duty

Well that's a little over 9 hours total (one of which is not on pay), how does that compare to your 9 to 5 job? Isn't 9 to 5 only 8 hours? Keep in mind that thile the train is being operated, there are NO coffee breaks nor lunch breaks. If you have to answer a call of nature, the train will stop moving until you're done. Do that often enough, and managment will direct a serious case of stink-eye your way.

>Work rosters aren't usually something negotiated with the Unions. They might have some input, but management makes the final decision.

The company is required to discuss run schedules with the Union, but you hit the bulls-eye with the "final" part.

That shift he worked wasn't really too bad.  Worked weekends, but that again is part of being in the people hauling business.
I see from the earlier post, that was just the last 2 days.  Guessing the first 3 days of his work week were all over the place time wise.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/15 04:04 by mp51w.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well that's a little over 9 hours total (one of which is not on pay), how does that compare to
> your 9 to 5 job? Isn't 9 to 5 only 8 hours? Keep in mind that thile the train is being operated,
> there are NO coffee breaks nor lunch breaks. If you have to answer a call of nature, the train
> will stop moving until you're done.
>
On the other hand, I've often observed northbound crews at Wilmington taking a cup of coffee to the engineer during that station stop..
Presumably he/she could also answer a call of nature at the same time.

Regardless of the above discussions the issue remains 106mph.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well that's a little over 9 hours total (one of
> which is not on pay), how does that compare to
> your 9 to 5 job? Isn't 9 to 5 only 8 hours? Keep
> in mind that thile the train is being operated,
> there are NO coffee breaks nor lunch breaks. If
> you have to answer a call of nature, the train
> will stop moving until you're done. Do that often
> enough, and managment will direct a serious case
> of stink-eye your way.

Are you banned from taking along a flask of coffee? The train does stop several times en route. Are you banned from visiting the toilet during those stops? Just want to know how bad it really is.

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you banned from taking along a flask of
> coffee? The train does stop several times en
> route. Are you banned from visiting the toilet
> during those stops? Just want to know how bad it
> really is.

No & No ... when Penn Tower existed up on 5th floor at 30th St before CETC and even with CETC there use to be runners to deliver orders and such to the T&E crews that would take down a coffee ... that was setup via radio before they arrived at the statiin ... sometimes if an engineer has to use the facilities and if it's possible, they'll try to make up a few seconds to arrive early run back into the first car and relieve themself so they can depart on time but usually the schedules are tight ...

Posted from Android

PennPlat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regardless of the above discussions the issue
> remains 106mph.

Thank you Captain Obvious.  Folks are trying to figure out WHY the train was doing that speed.

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PennPlat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Regardless of the above discussions the issue
> > remains 106mph.
>
> Thank you Captain Obvious.  Folks are trying to
> figure out WHY the train was doing that speed.

Well, the signals worked, the train was mechanically sound, they weren't hit with bullets and no switch problems. Personally I could care less if you're fatigued. It's your responsibility to know your body. If you're too tired and you run the train and crash it, guess what? You're going to jail or you should go to jail. This has nothing do with being a railroader or not. It's common sense. Some of you that keep making excuse after excuse would probably feel different if your loved one died or you yourself were injured in this accident. Rant over. Flame on...

Posted from Android

NSClevelandLine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bioyans Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PennPlat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Regardless of the above discussions the issue remains 106mph.
> >
> > Thank you Captain Obvious.  Folks are trying to figure out WHY the train was doing that speed.
>
> Well, the signals worked, the train was mechanically sound, they weren't hit with bullets and no switch problems. Personally I could care
> less if you're fatigued. It's your responsibility to know your body. If you're too tired and you run the train and crash it, guess what? You're going
> to jail or you should go to jail. This has nothing do with being a railroader or not. It's common sense. Some of you that keep making excuse after
> excuse would probably feel different if your loved one died or you yourself were injured in this accident. Rant over. Flame on...
>
> Posted from Android

Nice rant! Another day of certain TO members trying to excuse the engineer and remove any responsiblity associated with his behavior and/or conduct. Trains are stoned, shot at, run late, run early on a daily basis but not for many years has any of these conditions resulted in 8 dead and millions of dollars lost. 

elu34ch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NSClevelandLine Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bioyans Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > PennPlat Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Regardless of the above discussions the
> issue remains 106mph.
> > >
> > > Thank you Captain Obvious.  Folks are
> trying to figure out WHY the train was doing
> that speed.
> >
> > Well, the signals worked, the train
> was mechanically sound, they weren't hit with
> bullets and no switch problems. Personally I
> could care
> > less if you're fatigued. It's your
> responsibility to know your body. If you're too
> tired and you run the train and crash it, guess
> what? You're going
> > to jail or you should go to jail. This has
> nothing do with being a railroader or not. It's
> common sense. Some of you that keep making excuse
> after
> > excuse would probably feel different if your
> loved one died or you yourself were injured in
> this accident. Rant over. Flame on...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Nice rant! Another day of certain TO members
> trying to excuse the engineer and remove any
> responsiblity associated with his behavior and/or
> conduct. Trains are stoned, shot at, run late, run
> early on a daily basis but not for many years has
> any of these conditions resulted in 8 dead and
> millions of dollars lost. 

That pretty much sums it up, and I will leave it up to the NTSB to figure out the rest.  It has helped me to read and comment on this subject for my own sanity.   I'ts a real conumdrum what happened.