Passenger Trains > Update on Amtrak Passengers Being Left Behind

A number of weeks back, I posted a piece about my wife who was on Train 7 reporting that a lady got left behind at Havre, MT when the train departed.  This created quite a stir among passengers on 7.

Well, at present, I am at Whitefish, MT for an extended stay.  Of course, I often go to the station to watch 7 - 8 come and go.  I can report that I now believe that Amtrak does all it can to make sure no one is left behind.  On every passage of Trains 7 - 8 I have viewed, the Assistant Conductor is in the door of the last car (the 2730 or 2830) with the window open watching the platform for, I presume, any stragglers.  Upon clearing the platform, he/she closes the window on the door.  He/she is definitely watching until the train clears the platform.

So what more can Amtrak do on this matter?  I believe it gets down to personal responsibility on the part of passengers who are off the train on the platform while in the station to not wander off out of site of the train and make sure they are back on board in time to leave.

viatrainrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A number of weeks back, I posted a piece about my
> wife who was on Train 7 reporting that a lady got
> left behind at Havre, MT when the train departed.
>  This created quite a stir among passengers on
> 7.
>
> Well, at present, I am at Whitefish, MT for an
> extended stay.  Of course, I often go to the
> station to watch 7 - 8 come and go.  I can report
> that I now believe that Amtrak does all it can to
> make sure no one is left behind.  On every
> passage of Trains 7 - 8 I have viewed, the
> Assistant Conductor is in the door of the last car
> (the 2730 or 2830) with the window open watching
> the platform for, I presume, any stragglers.
>  Upon clearing the platform, he/she closes the
> window on the door.  He/she is definitely
> watching until the train clears the platform.
>
> So what more can Amtrak do on this matter?  I
> believe it gets down to personal responsibility on
> the part of passengers who are off the train on
> the platform while in the station to not wander
> off out of site of the train and make sure they
> are back on board in time to leave.

I would not say that "Amtrak left a passenger behind".    Remember Stupid is forever!!!!!!!

Don't the NORAC rules (applicable to Amtrak on the NEC only) require that the conductor or a/c observe that there's nobody stuck in the doors, jumping between cars, etc?

I've seen the watching so often I figured it's in the rules

Stuck in the doorway yes, but some fool running for a departing train, I do not think they are obligated to stop.

In the grand old days of passenger trains, I was instructed by veteran conductors that the car attendant (porter) would always leave his step box in position outside the vestibule
if he was not finished with his work or if he had passengers to board.  You would never move a train if a step box were in place on the platform.  When the platform was clear of boxes, time to go.  If a passenger strayed too far from the train, that was the passenger's fault, no problem....


Norm 

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar

There is a published departure time. Other than a flag stop, the train cannot depart prior to that time. So if someone gets left behind, it's their own fault. However, here's a different problem. Passengers not being let off the train. A few years back in Princeton, IL, a sleeping car passenger on No. 6 (sleepers were on the rear) never got off. Apparently the car attendant never came down to open up and the guy didn't want to attempt it himself (which is what I would have done).  About 15 minutes later, I witnissed No. 6 backing into the station from the east to unload this individual. So if the car attendant doesn't show up, that's clearly Amtrak's fault. But if the stop announcement is made (and often in Europe, no announcements are made) and the door is open, then clearly it's the passenger's fault for not getting off the train. They should then be put off at the next stop and fend for themselves.

OK, I was on coach one time and I was with wife getting off in Cumberland.  We were in lounge car until about 15 minutes prior and when we saw conductor he was a little frustrated since he had been looking for us to make sure we were ready to get off.  Getting off is a problem I have seen.

As far as missing train, I don't follow the logic of published departure time.  I mean how often is train in the station exactly in the station ontime???
What I heard conductor telling people is to stay trackside and what I saw was train crew being sure to get people back on.  I mean, they are there
for a purpose.  People like to get off, the full deal is over two days???  If is a manned station it would seem like an announcement would be in order
assuming they still have outside speakers.  i don't like the idea of blaming stupid people.  Sure if they walk into town but if they are simply in the station
or just a little away from the cars then a good faith effort should be made by the crew and it is certainly to their companies benefit to do so or doesn't that matter??

Bob

The weirdest thing I ever experienced was riding the San Joaquin out of Fresno to the bay area. This had to be at least 25 years ago. When we left Fresno we were no more than a minute out of the station when the train suddenly stopped and the conductor came rushing through our car and woke this male passenger up. A couple minutes later we were under way and as I looked out my window I see this same guy walking back towards the station. I don't think that would happen today.

robj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, I was on coach one time and I was with wife
> getting off in Cumberland.  We were in lounge car
> until about 15 minutes prior and when we saw
> conductor he was a little frustrated since he had
> been looking for us to make sure we were ready to
> get off.  Getting off is a problem I have seen.
>
> As far as missing train, I don't follow the logic
> of published departure time.  I mean how often is
> train in the station exactly in the station
> ontime???
> What I heard conductor telling people is to stay
> trackside and what I saw was train crew being sure
> to get people back on.  I mean, they are there
> for a purpose.  People like to get off, the full
> deal is over two days???  If is a manned station
> it would seem like an announcement would be in
> order
> assuming they still have outside speakers.  i
> don't like the idea of blaming stupid people. 
> Sure if they walk into town but if they are simply
> in the station
> or just a little away from the cars then a good
> faith effort should be made by the crew and it is
> certainly to their companies benefit to do so or
> doesn't that matter??
>
> Bob

Most station stops are just that, stops. If the conductor announces the train will be stopped for 10 minutes and a passanger gets off, it is not the crews responsiblity to make sure that passanger is back on the train in 10 minutes. That is the sole responsiblity of the passanger.

Of course it's Amtrak's fault. It's always Amtrak's fault, but never a problem in Europe or Canada.

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a published departure time. Other than a
> flag stop, the train cannot depart prior to that
> time. So if someone gets left behind, it's their
> own fault. However, here's a different problem.
> Passengers not being let off the train. A few
> years back in Princeton, IL, a sleeping car
> passenger on No. 6 (sleepers were on the rear)
> never got off. Apparently the car attendant never
> came down to open up and the guy didn't want to
> attempt it himself (which is what I would have
> done).  About 15 minutes later, I witnissed No. 6
> backing into the station from the east to unload
> this individual. So if the car attendant doesn't
> show up, that's clearly Amtrak's fault. But if the
> stop announcement is made (and often in Europe, no
> announcements are made) and the door is open, then
> clearly it's the passenger's fault for not getting
> off the train. They should then be put off at the
> next stop and fend for themselves.

I believe the Conductor in the last car watching out the Dutch Door is a rule thing, as they do it just about everywhere, at least where there is a "fresh air" stop.  And on those stops, the conductor will radio the engineer to blow the horn a minute or so prior to departure.  Prior to arrival they also announce to listen for the horn and often say that if you aren't back on the train you will be left behind.

Yes, having the conductor watching the platform as the train leaves IS an actual rule.
And, yes, a step box on the ground IS an attendant's signal to the conductor he/she hasn't finished- I've done just that.
SR

And what happens if someone forgets their step box is still on the ground and delays the train....
Ouch!

I cannot discuss this incident but relay an experience many years ago. The eastbound Empire Builder had just left the station out in the middle of nowhere and just a few minutes east of the station a radio call went out that a passenger had been left behind. They arranged to stop at a highway crossing several miles east of the station and someone from the station drove the woman out to the train. I have no clue to why she missed the train but she was brought several miles by private auto and put on board. Commendable.

Can this be a standard operating practice? NO! Do people need to accept responsibility for being aboard at the correct time? YES! All that said think of the PR value Amtrak gained by getting the woman back aboard.

DaleR

Having completed an 8400+ mile AGR point redemption 2 weeks ago, I can say that the conductors on the train do everything possible to avoid leaving anyone behind.  For non-stretch your legs stops, they clearly announce on the PA while approaching and upon arrival that they will only be in the station as long as necessary.  For the longer stops for the smokers, or, more often, crew change, the conductor announces that all getting off the train for a stretch are to stay on the platform, or very close to the train and to listen/watch for the crew or attendants to reboard.  As far as sleeping car attendants go, I noted that a couple from 'our' car had not returned to the attendant and he said he saw them reboard 2 cars down.  He kept an eye on them! 

As far as leaving anyone behind goes, perhaps 5-6 years ago, while aboard #49 out of Albany/Renssalaer one evening, the radio came alive saying we left an assistant conductor behind!  Whether it was another conductor or a station clerk, or a taxi, they held #49 at Schenectady until the wayward conductor arrived!  Maybe 20 years ago now, about 5 minutes after leaving Havre MT on #7, the crew was radioed to put off the baggage for a coach passenger at the next stop as they missed reboarding.  The baggage would be returned to Havre on #8, and the passenger was on their own to make arrangements from there.  In my younger days, 30 years ago or so, I've had to 'catch' my train on the run twice as I was too far away taking pictures of the entire train when the familiar 'toot toot' sounded!  Nowadays, I stay within 10 feet of the platform...although I sometimes wander up to the front of the train to take a picture or two...I watch the activity outside the baggage car to know when I better mosey on back to reboard.

On the other side of the coin, aboard #6 two weeks ago, we were at a 'short stop' for 3-4 minutes and the conductor got on the intercom to re-announce, for the 3rd or 4th time, this stop is <whatever> and all passengers deboarding there must do so within the next minute!  These days, with the ticket scanner device the crew has, they know ahead of time how many people are getting off and on at each stop.  In this case, there was fewer than 10 off and perhaps 5-6 on.  So when not enough got off, the conductor made sure the slowpoke got off!  Maybe 20 years ago already, on the Broadway Limited out of Harrisburg, the conductor radioed the engineer to stop at the next flag stop (the new Harrisburg Airport stop, perhaps?) to let a missed-their-stop sleepy passenger off.

The unfortunate reality is that passengers figure the train will wait for them, no matter what, or take them back to their stop.  I'm of the opinion that Amtrak crews make every reasonable effort to make sure that everyone is on that should be and off that should be.  I've even noticed on the NEC that the conductor will keep a door open for a few seconds after starting to move, watching the platform for any runners.  I recall my train moving maybe 20 feet and stopping a couple months ago...obviously to get a runner on board.  Metro North did the same while I was on one of their trains recently.      



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 19:00 by BRAtkinson.

LOL, how do we know passengers never miss getting on a train or on off a train in Europe?
Just what are the crews responsibilities?  ON a SWA airlines filght there was a late arriving
family of three, the attendant at the ramp notified an attendant on the plane and she held
three seats at the back so they would be seated together.  SWA airlines is
non reserved seating but.....
Was that her responsibility.
Too late, too bad, so sad!!!??????  Not my job? 
A customer leaves a bag at the store and the clerk chases them to give them there bag.
Heck with that, stupid customer????
A crews job is not to look after customers?????  Such silly comments. 

Bob



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 19:46 by robj.

I was on the CONO northbound in a sleeper a few years ago.   I found myself lucky to wake up on my own prior to my scheduled stop in Champaign, IL and figured my attendant would be by shortly to ensure I was ready to deboard.   He never showed up and I let myself off the train with by baggage.    I was quite taken aback at this occurrence.  I was feeling somewhat lucky, if not ignored, that I made it off at the right place (where my car was parked!) so I didn't make a big deal of it, but I was suprised. 

I've been on trains where we both left conductors behind, and carried them past there crew change point.
We had an AC who stepped off a Capitol Corridor train to help an older passenger WITH OUT HIS PACK-SET in Fremont one afternoon. We discreetly picked him up that evening when we headed back to Sac. Nothing was ever said about it. ('till now!).
Another time we carried our conductor past the crew change at K Falls, OR.
oops!
We let him off a mile or so out and he walked back to town. Anyone know/remember Bill Cotton? 'nuff said, right?
SR

Posted from iPhone

On 11 and 14 the conductors strongly warn people not to go into the station or off the platform during the stop at Eugene; apparently they lose a few passengers every week.

As to the crew helping late passengers get on board:  One of the most famous legal cases in this country, something that every first year law student still has to read and try to understand, is Palsgraf v. Long Island Railroad.  In that case a passenger ran to catch a train as it was leaving the station; two crew members, one on the train and one on the ground, helped him scramble on board.  In the process the passenger dropped a package that turned out to contain fireworks, and the fireworks exploded.  The force of the explosion caused a scale at the other end of the platform to fall over, injuring Mrs. Palsgraf, who sued the railroad, claiming that its employees had caused her injuries.  The issue for the New York Court of Appeals (New York's highest court) was whether the railroad's actions were enough of a cause of the injury to allow the jury to decide whether the railroad was at fault.  By a 4-3 vote the court said no and threw the case out.  Both the majority and dissenting opinions were by respected judges, and their opinions are classics on the issue of so-called "proximate cause."  The issue still arises, with some states siding with the majority and some (including Oregon) with the minority.  Thus railroad employees once went to great lengths to help passengers catch their trains, not always with the best results for the passenger or for onlookers.

I was on the Empire Builder several years ago, on my first Amtrak trip.  Along the way the conductor announced, "Ladies and Gentlemen our next stop is ______ .  We'll be here for 10 minutes.  Feel free to step off the train for a smoke or fresh air but stay on the platform.  We'll blow the horn about a minute before we depart."  This happened several times.  Then there was a slightly modified one.  "Ladies and gentlemen, our next stop will be Whitefish, Montana.  This will be a 20 minute stop.  You may step off the train to smoke or get some fresh air.  Stay next to the train or in the station.  We'll blow the horn about a minute before we leave.  If you walk into town and miss the train, Amtrak will be glad to pick you up tomorrow and you'll have 24 hours in Whitefish at your own expense."

On the northbound Coast Starlight there was a lady and her three girls on the train.  The coach they were on was a bit crowded so they moved to the next coach.  Well, when the train got to her station, no one opened the doors and she didn't get off.  Everyone for that station was in the car she was originally on because of the short platform at the destination.  I forgot which station it was but there was no cell service there and her husband was at the station waiting for her.   Long story short, They tried to figure out what to do, drop her off at the next road, or what.  She got to ride 3 hours to the next station where we met the southbound Starlight and she got a ride back to her destination station.  I've often wondered if the "Till death do us part" was invoked when she finally got back to her husband.  ( I guess that's one way to get some extra miles under your butt. )

John

Some people may think Amtrak is just like the bus leaving the rest stop - the driver does a headcount, and will go back into the snack bar to hunt down who's missing.