Passenger Trains > Stupid heat restriction...and it's not even really hot!

Our train was nearly two hours late arriving at Essex Junction, Vermont last night due to "heat speed restriction" that limited the train to 30 mph. Apparently the rails in Vermont melt or something like that when the temperature is 90 degrees, which, in my mind is not hot at all, coming from the Lower Desert in California where I live. After a while things started to cool off. So I pointed that out the conductor on my smartphone that the true outside temperature was 78-81 and that he needed to contact and berate the dispatcher, which he did. After an exchange of strong language on the railroad radio, we were finally able to get up to track speed. I complimented the conductor for doing a good job expediting the train. S

So we spend our money to rebuild their private railroad, and they act like jerks in response to the passenger train.
Someone ought to tell VT-DOT.

It is not the absolute temperature that dictates heat orders, but how much above the temperature to which the rail is destressed.  90 degrees in Vermont may be as extreme as 110 in Arizona.

Gordon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/16 23:45 by gbmott.

Evidently the conductor did not agree with that assessment and won a match with the dispatcher with the host RR.

Speed restrictions can com from drastic increases from cool night temperatures to hot afternoon temps.

There is a difference between being a railfan and a railroader.....stay on your side.

I go by the dispatchers temperature readings and the readout given by detectors and proceed by rules and directives, I am not qualified to make temperature measurements as I am not issued a calibrated thermometer.

Posted from Android

It's all about the difference between the high and low temps each day.  If it cools down significantly at night, then warms up in the 90's, the potential affect on the rails dictates the heat restriction.

That is unbelievable if the train dispatcher change a speed restriction per a conductor’s request.  A hot rail restriction comes from the Engineering Department and only a General Manager can review and edit that.  It is the rail temperature, not air temperature that is critical, and the condition of the track.  The track may have been recently surfaced which has changed the ballast holding value on the ties, and the size of the 1’ of stone required off the end of the ties.  The steel will expand with the hot sun and it must be compressed exactly where it sits, and many rail anchors need to box each set of ties.  There may have been too few anchors on that section.  And it depends what was the adjustment temperature of the rail when it was laid.  The number of curves and sharpness also is important.  Being in VT it could have been adjusted so it would not pull apart at 30 below zero in the winter, and be set 30 degrees below the average adjustment temperature used other places.  Rail temperature can be 40 degrees over air temperature account of the hot sun heating it.
The speed is adjusted for giving the engineer an increase ability to stop if he see a sun kink ahead, and with the many sharp curves in VT it is much harder to watch the track ahead.  The restrictions put on by the Engineering Department are fully justified. You are not taking the safe course to question that. The FRA would find that a major safety violation if someone changed the engineer’s department restriction.  PS:  You need a very special thermometer that lays flush on the head of the rail to get the correct rail temperature.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/16 15:45 by PlyWoody.

I have seen heat kinks both on SEPTA and Amtrak.  If it has been hot for a few days, watch out!  Heat restrictioins were very common for track and wire.
We were taking the last train up the north side, had been a brutal hot day but the temp had dropped a lot, was actually quite nice out. I was riding the cab, the Engineer and I both saw a Kink, to late t stop short of it, we attempted to stop but went through it at walking speed.  Very powerful side to side slam. We stopped walked back and boy we were surprised.  Dispatch none too happy, gave them something to do that night. We all knew we were on the right side of the Lord that night.  Passengers were very interested in what happened, same bunch every night, understanding folks..
The wires stretch and sag out with the heat, another reason for reduce speed.  Same run another time and I looked out the front window from inside the train, the last down train was sparking and arching about two miles coming toward us. The engineer notified the southbound that something was wrong, he should check.  He slowed as we were passing him, sure enough we had wire in the southbound gage for better than a half mile. We were able to get past the down before they cut power but it was a slow walk north looking for "other downs".  The wire train was out of the yard before we go to our final stop.
Heat is very hard on equipment, equal to snow in winter. If it can break, it will.
 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Evidently the conductor did not agree with that
> assessment and won a match with the dispatcher
> with the host RR.

Which makes me question the whole story. On my employer, the engineering department instructs the dispatcher when to issue and pick up a heat warning. A dispatcher can't annul one just because some know it all foamer has an accuweather app.

Posted from iPhone

What would TAW do?  ;)

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Evidently the conductor did not agree with that
> > assessment and won a match with the dispatcher
> > with the host RR.
>
> Which makes me question the whole story. On my
> employer, the engineering department instructs the
> dispatcher when to issue and pick up a heat
> warning. A dispatcher can't annul one just because
> some know it all foamer has an accuweather app.
>
> Posted from iPhone

30mph is a bit ridiculous for a heat warning.

Google suggests he may be a lawyer, which might explain the bullying attitude and, uh, 'creative' storytelling.

Quite the 'interesting' posting history here on Trainorders, too.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/16 16:01 by darkcloud.

Is this a sign of things to come with HSR?

DavidJustinLynch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Our train was nearly two hours late arriving at
> Essex Junction, Vermont last night due to "heat
> speed restriction" that limited the train to 30
> mph. Apparently the rails in Vermont melt or
> something like that when the temperature is 90
> degrees, which, in my mind is not hot at all,
> coming from the Lower Desert in California where I
> live. After a while things started to cool off. So
> I pointed that out the conductor on my smartphone
> that the true outside temperature was 78-81 and
> that he needed to contact and berate the
> dispatcher, which he did. After an exchange of
> strong language on the railroad radio, we were
> finally able to get up to track speed. I
> complimented the conductor for doing a good job
> expediting the train. S

​Yup.  The conductor did not want to be delayed any more than you did!
 

wigwag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this a sign of things to come with HSR?

Depends on how it's designed (overdesigned for safety or underdesigned by corruption amateurs). I don't think travellers who ride high speed trains in Europe and Asia should worry. Last heat-related delay on the Shinkansen was 6 years ago.

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wigwag Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is this a sign of things to come with HSR?
>
> Depends on how it's designed (overdesigned for
> safety or underdesigned by corruption amateurs). I
> don't think travellers who ride high speed trains
> in Europe and Asia should worry. Last heat-related
> delay on the Shinkansen was 6 years ago.

Most HSR track seems to be concrete panel track, not ballast-tie-rail track.

Ray  

Hearing all sides of this, this whole thing sounds weird. Dispatcher pulls down a slow order because an Amtrak conductor used strong language ? If true, maybe the dispatcher did not have documentation in the right place and time that the temp was 90 (or whatever) it was to justify it.

On some railroads the heat restriction is not issued on bulletin but in the timetable speed restrictions.
The timetable gives a threshold temperature that requires a lower speed.
Anyone know what the case is on the railroad in question?
I believe in cases where the timetable lists the threshold temperature the crews take the detector readout
temperature as official.  I don't know about TAW, but I would never lift a speed restriction on my own.

Comparing heat in Vermont to southern California for this purpose is irrelevant.  I know BNSF, and likely UP as well, adjust their neutral rail temperature (that is the temperature at which rail is neither in tension or compresssion) on lines in the desert southwest to a much higher level than what they do on lines further north.  And as several have said, the temperature differential in a short time is more important than the high temperature.