Passenger Trains > Engineer in 2013 wreck, reportedly sues Metro North?

I do not know how to provide a link to the story on "NEWSDAY" (on line), but there is a story that the Engineer involved in the 2013 wreck at Spuyten Duyvil, has reportedly sued Metro North over the fact that the equipment did NOT have an "alerter". Never mind the issue about him suffering from sleep apnea! Nobody ever seems to be responsible for their own actions; must be someone else's fault.

There was an "alertor." His foot was on it.

knotch8 Wrote:
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> There was an "alertor." His foot was on it.

Interesting.  Wait 'till THAT comes out in court.

That was a deadman control, not an alerter. Alerter is less foolproof.

"Safety system 'alerter' not in derailed train's engineer cab"
http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/safety-system-alerter-not-in-derailed-train-s-engineer-cab-1.6549887

'the safety system, known as an alerter, sounds an alarm when an engineer remains idle for 25 seconds while the train is in motion, said Aaron Donovan, a spokesman for the MTA. The engineer has 15 seconds to respond to the alarm by hitting a button. If the engineer fails to do so within that time, the system automatically applies the brakes."

"cab in which Rockefeller was operating was equipped with another type of safety feature known as "dead man's pedal" designed to slow the train and eventually bring it to a stop if the operator loses consciousness."

IOW, you don't put your foot on an alertor.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/16 08:37 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a deadman control, not an alerter.
> Alerter is less foolproof.
>
> "Safety system 'alerter' not in derailed train's
> engineer cab"
> http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/safety-system
> -alerter-not-in-derailed-train-s-engineer-cab-1.65
> 49887
>
> 'the safety system, known as an alerter, sounds an
> alarm when an engineer remains idle for 25 seconds
> while the train is in motion, said Aaron Donovan,
> a spokesman for the MTA. The engineer has 15
> seconds to respond to the alarm by hitting a
> button. If the engineer fails to do so within that
> time, the system automatically applies the
> brakes."
>
> "cab in which Rockefeller was operating was
> equipped with another type of safety feature known
> as "dead man's pedal" designed to slow the train
> and eventually bring it to a stop if the operator
> loses consciousness."
>
> IOW, you don't put your foot on an alertor.


OK,,,,,,so in reality, it REALLY WAS Metro North's fault?   I give up!  

We are not the one's who assess "fault", but MN is partially negligent.
What MN also deliberately neglected to have was their ATC system enforce speed limits through signal indications on severe curves.
So did Amtrak eastbound on that curve in North Philly.
FRA demanded they implement it immediately in those areas, which costs near nothing.

Do understand what they have and what they do not.

HotWater Wrote:

> Never mind the issue about him suffering from
> sleep apnea! Nobody ever seems to be responsible
> for their own actions; must be someone else's
> fault.

He was not diagnosed with sleep apnea until AFTER the accident. How do you hold someone responsible for something they didn't know they had? Would you feel the same way if he suddenly had a seizure, due to a brain tumor he was unaware of, with no previous history of medical issues?

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bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
>
> > Never mind the issue about him suffering from
> > sleep apnea! Nobody ever seems to be
> responsible
> > for their own actions; must be someone else's
> > fault.
>
> He was not diagnosed with sleep apnea until AFTER
> the accident. How do you hold someone responsible
> for something they didn't know they had? Would
> you feel the same way if he suddenly had a
> seizure, due to a brain tumor he was unaware of,
> with no previous history of medical issues?
>
> Posted from Android

​He fell asleep at the throttle, sleep Apnea isn't a sudden occurance like a heart attack or stroke or seizure.  If he really has such a condition he would have known about it and if that is the case then he might have been afraid to expose it as he would surely have been taken off service.

PennPlat Wrote:

> ​He fell asleep at the throttle, sleep Apnea
> isn't a sudden occurance like a heart attack or
> stroke or seizure.  If he really has such a
> condition he would have known about it and if that
> is the case then he might have been afraid to
> expose it as he would surely have been taken off
> service.

Sleep apnea often DOES go unnoticed for quite some time. It doesn't always cause normal drowsiness. It often manifests itself by an individual quickly lapsing into a "microsleep" that can be very similar to a sudden loss of awareness or unconsciousness. I know several coworkers in the railroad industry who were diagnosed with it. They had it for quite some time, and never knew it. In each of the cases, they went in thinking their lack of energy was attributed to something else, such as irregular schedules, or working frequently "on call" 24/7.

Are there people out there who know they have it, but don't address it for fear of being removed from service? Absolutely. But there are likely as many (if not more) who have no idea they have it.

That was true of the NJT engineer at Hoboken - unaware of his condition, undiagnosed, and a spotless service record.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are not the one's who assess "fault", but MN is
> partially negligent.
> What MN also deliberately neglected to have was
> their ATC system enforce speed limits through
> signal indications on severe curves.
> So did Amtrak eastbound on that curve in North
> Philly.

That isn't negligence, just a cost-benefit based decision on how much overlapping safety features were sufficient versus risk.  (Though I realize that the brat element of our culture wants to criminalize anything they disagree with.)

Of course money is no object to the backseat drivers who want others to pay for their wishes.
 

Sleep apnea DOES result in micro "naps" These are self evident to the engineer, diagnosis notwithstanding. Let's not feel sorry for the ones who wreck a train and then sue their employer because they didn't use the latest wake-up electronics.

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mp208 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sleep apnea DOES result in micro "naps" These are
> self evident to the engineer, diagnosis
> notwithstanding. Let's not feel sorry for the ones
> who wreck a train and then sue their employer
> because they didn't use the latest wake-up
> electronics.
>
> Posted from Android

It's not about feeling sorry for anyone. There just seems to be a perception among some here, who act like the individuals involved in a wreck were some fly-by-the-seat-of-their pants, grossly incompetent individual who knowingly put people at risk. That's an awfully broad brush to paint someone with. Yet, we often find the individual is one who their coworkers consider to be an upstanding employee, who otherwise had a reputation and service record that showed they WERE quite competent, and weren't the type to put people at risk. We (their coworkers) are surprised to hear they were involved. Mr. Bostian, who was a member of TO, comes immediately to mind. Not everyone who gets in a wreck is a Gates or Sanchez, who were "just a matter of time" according to their coworkers.

What the facts often show, is that these accidents are a "perfect storm" of contributing factors, that come together in a sequence that allows for the accident to occur. Each, on their own, would not be enough to trigger the event. Combined, they fall together in just the right order to result in a catastrophe.

How do I feel about the lawsuit personally? Honestly, I have mixed feelings. Does it look bad from A PR perspective? Absolutely. Do I understand why he might file suit? Sure ... especially since he is likely facing personal lawsuits for wrongful death. His own suit may be a carefully calculated step undertaken by his counsel to help mitigate the personal effects he has to deal with. Showing that he alone wasn't responsible ... that MN's deliberate choices in what safety equipment they used ... CONTRIBUTED to the accident, may help keep the wolves at bay. Again, do I feel sorry for him? No, never said that. Do I UNDERSTSAND why he would? Yes.

Having said that, some here need to knock off the holier-than-thou attitude that these crew members are ALWAYS reckless individuals who knowingly put people at risk. Many times, they are the complete opposite ... who simply found themselves in a bad situation, at the worst possible time.

Railroad accidents happen for four reasons:

1. Something, usually a vehicle gets on the track and the the train hits it.
2. The track itself becomes deformed and the train leaves the track, e.g. A bridge washout.
3. The signaller/dispatcher makes a mistake and signals two trains into the same space
4. The driver/engineer makes a mistake and goes through a red signal.

The history of railroading has been characterised by a long term effort to make sure that the dispatcher is not able to make the error at 3. So interlockings were followed by further technological developments that make signalling two trains onto the same line very hard. But we haven't been quite as careful with the engineer. If we are going to improve rail safety don't we need to help the person who now has the greatest vulnerability, i.e. The engineeer? The question is how best to do this. I'm not sure that blaming the engineer is the right way, but it sure does make some people who, like me, have never driven a train feel good.

< That isn't negligence, just a cost-benefit based decision on how much overlapping safety features were sufficient versus risk.  (Though I realize that the brat element of our culture wants to criminalize anything they disagree with.) Of course money is no object to the backseat drivers who want others to pay for their wishes.>

• The "cost" is for a signal maintainer to head to a signal box and adjust signal indications to enforce speed limits on the ATC system, which has been in place for 70 years, which takes 2 hours to do.
• That was required of MN after Spuyten Duyvil.
• That was required of Amtrak in North Philly on that curve in the eastbound direction (it was in effect in the westbound direction) by FRA in order to reopen the NEC after 4 days of 188's wreck.
• That was required many years ago of Amtrak at Back Bay Boston after an accident.
• Both MN and AMTK were widely accused of having a poor safety culture and valuing 1 or 2 minutes in the timetable over the risk of taking a 30MPH curve at 100MPH, which in 3 years has cost 12 passengers their lives, 2 engineers their livelihoods, hundreds in million in lawsuits, and 10 destroyed coaches.

Perhaps you should learn something of these safety features and technologies, and know the difference between ATC/ASC, and PTC, before you call others "backseat drivers".
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/16 04:43 by joemvcnj.

One thing that is sure to come out of this is that a "sleep study" test to check for for sleep apnea is soon to become part of the DOT physical that railroaders have to pass in order to be declared fit for work.

Yes, it is expensive, requiring an all day or overnight stay in a clinic or a hospital, and insurance companies are not very kind to such claims.
But we now have in 3 years 2 fatal MN and NJT wrecks directly attributable to sleep apnea. While we do not know what exactly happened with 188, the most devastating of all, but Amtrak has had to pay a huge settlement.

Dead man pedals are useless. On the SP, when we would catch a UP unit on the point,  they usually had a packing hook jammed in the pedal to hold it down or even an old brake shoe. If a person slept or what ever, their body weight would hold it down anyway. 

On the other hand SP had some of the alerters that were a real pain in the ass. I had a train once going down the west valley that had a button reset. Every 42 seconds for 2 & 1/2 hours it would go off.  Try it sometime and see how long you can go before you want to yank it out guts feathers and all.  Some of he early switch engines (BLH-FMs) had alerters and I never saw one that worked . They were put in when they cut the fireman off back in 64. 

The Atk engines had the same setup but you could touch something and it would reset. You could set your arm on the right arm rest attached to the chair and when it started to go off just flick your hand into the cab wall, 2" away and it would reset.

As far as the guy filing suit against the carrier, don't second guess his actions until it  ALL the info is on the table.
There is the boiler safety act with the FRA that says the carrier has to provide us with a "....safe place to work...." so stay tuned when the gavel drops.


Nudge

 

MN has 36 old dual-voltage MU's in service. 30 are M-2 married pairs, 6 are newer M-4 triplets. Only the M-2 have alerters. The M-4's have just the dead man. The M-4's are now banned from being the lead and trailing cars of any consist.

Many companies tolerate inadequate testing etc when they believe a cost benefit analysis favors the company. And change when massive judgments or public opinion forces them. The Ford Pinto fires, cosmetics companies blinding rabbits, lots of examples.

Sleep apnea affects 5 to 7 percent of the population. No reason to believe engineers are exempt. And if carriers want one person in the cab or bus driver or hazmat truck or F35 the burden of testing should be on them.

Not on passengers or bystanders.

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