Passenger Trains > BrightLine: "This thing just got real"

A leading editorial opponent of the All Aboard Florida / Bright Line project of high speed rail between Miami and Orlando, in Florida recently participated in the Open House. To say he was impressed is to understate the case...


At the AAF train reveal

Sounds like this guy wants the train to stop every 20 miles.

OK, just to show the world how unused to the concept of rail transportation many journalists are here's part of what he said:  "... the engineer will be when he steers this streamlined behemoth from Miami to West Palm Beach..." (I did the italizing).

Now, please explain to me and, more importantly, the writer just how is it that the engineer steers a train?

John Webb
Trinidad, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/17 18:57 by Winnemucca.

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, just to show the world how unused to the
> concept of rail transportation many journaloists
> are here's part of what he said:  "... the
> engineer will be when he steers this streamlined
> behemoth from Miami to West Palm Beach..." (I did
> the italizing).
>
> Now, please explain to me and, more importantly,
> the writer just how is it that the engineer steers
> a train?

And people wonder how/why the media got the election so wrong...

Posted from Android

Setandcentered Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> And people wonder how/why the media got the
> election so wrong...
>
> Posted from Android

That's a huge stretch to equate a poor word choice describing an engineer's duties with incorrectly predicting the outcome of the electoral college.  Additionally, you imply all media is the same.  It is not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/17 19:39 by RuleG.

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Setandcentered Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > And people wonder how/why the media got the
> > election so wrong...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> That's a huge stretch to equate a poor word choice
> describing an engineer's duties with incorrectly
> predicting the outcome of the electoral college. 
> Additionally, you imply all media is the same. 
> It is not

So serious, geeze!

Next time I'll clarify MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

If they can't get the little things right, then it's no wonder they (again, MAINSTREAM MEDIA) biff the big stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/17 20:04 by Setandcentered.

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Setandcentered Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > And people wonder how/why the media got the
> > election so wrong...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> That's a huge stretch to equate a poor word choice
> describing an engineer's duties with incorrectly
> predicting the outcome of the electoral college. 
> Additionally, you imply all media is the same. 
> It is not.

the majority of media is fake news 

Responding  to  Satandcentered, RuleG opines,  in  part:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> ... you imply all media is the same. 
> It is not.
Yes.  Some are even less imformed or more agendized.

billio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes.  Some are even less imformed or more
> agendized.

Train Ignorance is expected, so the article's immature enthusiasm is understandable, from a guy who says he's "...intrepid columnist for all things transportation related." Good example of "less informed."

As for agendized, that's a pandora's box that should be left closed. Let's just say some who had access to information that mass media refused to touch way back in July would not have been startled by what happened four months later. It IS true that media thinks people can't handle the truth, and people by their own irrational behavior enforce that arrogant attitude. Sad.

Not only is the word Steer wrong, but Brightline is not a passenger train.  IT IS A RAPID TRANSIT, NOT A RAILROAD PASSENGER TRAIN AND NOT AMTRAK. LONG AGO THIS WAS TERMED INTERURBAN. It will be operated by a contractor, not by a railroad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/17 07:46 by PlyWoody.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not only is the word Steer wrong, but Brightline
> is not a passenger train.  IT IS A RAPID TRANSIT,
> NOT A RAILROAD PASSENGER TRAIN AND NOT AMTRAK.
> LONG AGO THIS WAS TERMED INTERURBAN. It will be
> operator by a contractor, not by a railroad.

Brightline is very much a passenger train. And the engineers/conductors will be Brightline employees, not a contractor. 

It's aggravating to me to see new coach interiors, with added little touches such as USB ports, and "it's" not Amtrak!

> And people wonder how/why the media got the election so wrong...

The media got this wrong because they're ignorant about trains and won't/don't take the trouble to inform themselves before they write. In a way the media have their readership correctly calibrated, though.  The great unwashed are just as uninformed as their sources of information are.

The media got the election wrong because they wanted it to go their way and knew that it would. They ignored the ubiquitous signs right in front of their collective noses that it wasn't going their way. 
They laughed off Standing Room Only rallies for Trump that were taking place all over the country. The told us that Trump's yuuuuuuge rally attendance wouldn't translate into votes for him.  
They were wrong.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Fritz in HSV, AL



 

In the case of Brightline and Martin County, I think the great big echo chamber definitely played a large role. Once it became clear that  AAF wasn't stopping in Stuart, the whole thing spun on a dime. The 32 trains each day became an intolerable curse, not a great advance.

The occasional successes in litigation and ongoing belief that the trains "could go up through the middle of the state" on the CSX line led many people to believe that this thing wasn't going to happen.  Probably not unlike the recent election, with its stops and starts.

(The past 15 years have seen occasional discussions about Amtrak sending a train from NY down the FEC. That always gets attention, and Amtrak has run demonstration trains at least once or twice.  Every once in a while somebody proclaims Tri-Rail is coming to Stuart or Jensen Beach or Vero.  That's good for a commotion, too.)

chrsjrcj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PlyWoody Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not only is the word Steer wrong, but
> Brightline
> > is not a passenger train.  IT IS A RAPID
> TRANSIT,
> > NOT A RAILROAD PASSENGER TRAIN AND NOT AMTRAK.
> > LONG AGO THIS WAS TERMED INTERURBAN. It will
> be
> > operated by a contractor, not by a railroad.
>
> Brightline is very much a passenger train. And the
> engineers/conductors will be Brightline employees,
> not a contractor. 

Please read all of this STB ruling.
https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synopsis/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf  its only 7 pages

Call Brightline what you like but it is still a Rapid Transit "INTERURBAN" and Brightline is the contractor.
The Engineer and Conductor will not be paying into the US Government Railroad Retirement System (RRB)and do not come under the Railway Liability Act (FELA) as they are not railroad employees.  I did sand corrected that the FRA is still involved where it uses Florida East Coast tracks.  Review my last year posts.
 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/17 16:33 by PlyWoody.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chrsjrcj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PlyWoody Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Not only is the word Steer wrong, but
> > Brightline
> > > is not a passenger train.  IT IS A RAPID
> > TRANSIT,
> > > NOT A RAILROAD PASSENGER TRAIN AND NOT
> AMTRAK.
> > > LONG AGO THIS WAS TERMED INTERURBAN. It will
> > be
> > > operated by a contractor, not by a railroad.
> >
> > Brightline is very much a passenger train. And
> the
> > engineers/conductors will be Brightline
> employees,
> > not a contractor. 
>
> Please read all of this STB ruling.
> https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synops
> is/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf
> Call Brightline what you like but it is still a
> Rapid Transit "INTERURBAN" and Brightline is the
> contractor.
> The Engineer and Conductor will not be paying into
> the US Government Railroad Retirement System
> (RRB)and do not come under the Railway Liability
> Act (FELA) as they are not railroad employees.  I
> did sand corrected that the FRA is still involved
> where it uses Florida East Coast tracks.  Review
> my last year posts.
>  


I read the attached document (thank you), but I don't understand your assertion that it's not a passenger train because it's not presided over by the STB.

"I read the attached document (thank you), but I don't understand your assertion that it's not a passenger train because it's not presided over by the STB."

You need to read and understand the US Constitution and especially the Commerce Clause.  The movement of people, and even mail, Railway Express, milk, handled since the beginning of trolleys, interurbans, subways, cogs, vertical, horse car lines, are not commerce, nor even interstate commerce when crossing state lines, and therefore are not the jurisdiction of the Federal Government.  Many legal cases against the trolley and interurban industry has established that case of law very firmly.  All Abroad Florida was reviewed by the STB and ruled to be an interurban, and will be run by people who will not be covered by FELA or the RRB, (Federal programs) at a greatly lower labor expense. This is an example where there was correct compliance to the rules of the Constitution. The very new difference which AAF obtained was that their separation from the Interstate commerce lines, even though they run over freight tracks, was not by time separation (Durable) like San Diego Trolley and the RiverLine in Trenton NJ, but was separation by signal system using new PTC and GPS location.  This would not be legal without PTC securing the separation.  The New Jersey Transit RiverLine is run by a contractor which does not come under FELA or Railroad Retirement System (RRB).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/17 16:20 by PlyWoody.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/17 00:23 by darkcloud.

Yes, I understand all of that. However, that doesn't answer the question of why it's not a train.  

From GCOR;

Train
One or more engines coupled, with or without cars, displaying a marker, and authorized to operate on a main track. A term that when used in connection with speed restrictions, flag protection, and the observance of all signals and signal rules also applies to engines.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I read the attached document (thank you), but I
> don't understand your assertion that it's not a
> passenger train because it's not presided over by
> the STB."
>
> You need to read and understand the US
> Constitution and especially the Commerce Clause. 
> The movement of people, and even mail, Railway
> Express, milk, handled since the beginning of
> trolleys, interurbans, subways, cogs, vertical,
> horse car lines, are not commerce, nor even
> interstate commerce when crossing state lines, and
> therefore are not the jurisdiction of the Federal
> Government.  Many legal cases against the trolley
> and interurban industry has established that case
> of law very firmly.  All Abroad Florida was
> reviewed by the STB and ruled to be an interurban,
> and will be run by people who will not be covered
> by FELA or the RRB, (Federal programs) at a
> greatly lower labor expense. This is an example
> where there was correct compliance to the rules of
> the Constitution. The very new difference which
> AAF obtained was that their separation from the
> Interstate commerce lines, even though they run
> over freight tracks, was not by time separation
> (Durable) like San Diego Trolley and the RiverLine
> in Trenton NJ, but was separation by signal system
> using new PTC and GPS location.  This would not
> be legal without PTC securing the separation.
>  The New Jersey Transit RiverLine is run by a
> contractor which does not come under FELA or
> Railroad Retirement System (RRB).

The important point is BrightLine is a interurban (train-if your like) which will be run by non-union contractor employees that do not pay into the Railroad Retirement System (RRB) and are not covered by FELA. 
Your are in error: "the reason Brightline doesn't need the time separation from freight is because AAF will use rail vehicles that meet applicable FRA crash standards. Light-rail vehicles, like the SD 'Trolley' and RiverLine don't meet these standards."  BrightLine does need and obtains time separation (many times) by the signal system (with PTC) which makes the Interurban isolated from the freight railroad of interstate and intrastate commerce. It is not the construction of the car body but the nature of the fact they do not carry commerce on AAF and are therefore not transportation of commerce.  Passenger are not commerce as the trolley lines and subways have proven and the courts of America have set in law during the past 100 years. AAF is an intrastate operation and not under Federal jurisdiction.