Passenger Trains > Spinning off the Auto-Train business?

The Auto-Train business has a number of unusual characteristics for Amtrak. Extremely good equipment utilization (each train set turns over every 24 hours), good and experienced crews, high fares (coach is $200+, vehicle is another $200, sleepers can be $900 a night), and a closed pool of equipment. Auto-Train regularly tailors the length of its trains from about 32 cars to 48 cars.

In thinking about Amtrak being broken up and parceled out, this would seem to be the crown jewel, or one of them.

I wonder if Disney, or the corporate parents of Universal, etc would buy it from Amtrak?

It still loses money.
Nick

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If it was run by one of those companies it would make money
Guaranteed!

Posted from iPhone

Not necessarily...
You can't say that without a through study of ALL the numbers.

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

The passenger carrying equipment is getting a bit old. Even if an investor wanted to reequip the whole train and start anew, where do you go to buy the equipment?

I think you would have to find a neutral operator.

I'd like to see a detailed evaluation by Disney of the economics of having their own long distance passenger train(s).

MojaveBill Wrote:
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> Not necessarily...
> You can't say that without a through study of ALL
> the numbers.

The numbers are in, Auto-Train was a private company that went bust and was taken over by Amtrak. It would be like trying to sell Amtrak back to the railroads. Have you guys been using untreated tender water again?

NGotwalt Wrote:
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> It still loses money.
> Nick
>
> Posted from iPhone

Please elaborate! My understanding that even under Amtrak Mgmt. the Auto-Train actually turned a Profit. Whether it was one of the routes or only route that achieved such success may be a matter of financial interpretation. But it seems that after X-number of years it has been the most successful LD Train Route on the entire Amtrak System. Has it retained a profitable margin, lets hear from the group!!!

You know they ALL lose money . The bus . lite rail Metro , Metra . You man it it gets state and Federal funds. If you raise the cost to ride it to make iy pay for it self . people would NOT ride them. The COST would keep the people away.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> The passenger carrying equipment is getting a bit
> old. Even if an investor wanted to reequip the
> whole train and start anew, where do you go to buy
> the equipment?


If there is a demand for the equipment, a builder could be found. There are passenger car companies that rebuild equipment in this country right now that for the right price, they could rebuild the equipment needed. Look what Ringling Brothers did rebuilding passenger cars for their circus trains over the years. It can be done if one has the money to support it.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

railwaybaron Wrote:
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> The numbers are in, Auto-Train was a private
> company that went bust and was taken over by
> Amtrak. It would be like trying to sell Amtrak
> back to the railroads. Have you guys been using
> untreated tender water again?

AT foolishly tried expanding into the Midwest. That was the main thing which did them in, but the downfall also was helped by a couple of bad derailments.

I can't remember, but did AT add a second NE-Florida train or was it just talking about it?

Equipment and operating costs are probably under better control now than they were in the seventies.

How would CSX regards having another operator?

It would take some work to make such an operation into a profitable company, but it is probably the best candidate for spinoff.

Question - how are the demographics? Are any young families becoming regular customers?

ClubCar Wrote:
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> If there is a demand for the equipment, a builder
> could be found. There are passenger car companies
> that rebuild equipment in this country right now
> that for the right price, they could rebuild the
> equipment needed. Look what Ringling Brothers did
> rebuilding passenger cars for their circus trains
> over the years. It can be done if one has the
> money to support it.
> John in White Marsh, Maryland

I could be wrong, but if RRRB was rebuilding cars for paying customers, it would have been held to higher standards. The circus trains were run at freight train speeds, not passenger, and I believe the standards for the rolling stock reflected that.

Liability insurance would be a major cost right off the top for a single route operation like Auto Train. The cost for access to the track would also be higher than Amtrak pays, if you could even get it. Fares would have to increase for a successful for profit operation.

Disney would buy an airline before taking over an old train. Not that they would do either. Consider annual ridership of Autotrain vs annual attendance at Disney World, et al. Not to mention how many of the Autotrain demographic would ever set foot in a Disney park.

Amtrak to sell of the only route that makes money? Come to think of it, that does sound like something Amtrak would do.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> ClubCar Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If there is a demand for the equipment, a
> builder
> > could be found. There are passenger car
> companies
> > that rebuild equipment in this country right
> now
> > that for the right price, they could rebuild
> the
> > equipment needed. Look what Ringling Brothers
> did
> > rebuilding passenger cars for their circus
> trains
> > over the years. It can be done if one has the
> > money to support it.
> > John in White Marsh, Maryland
>
> I could be wrong, but if RRRB was rebuilding cars
> for paying customers, it would have been held to
> higher standards. The circus trains were run at
> freight train speeds, not passenger, and I believe
> the standards for the rolling stock reflected
> that.

RBBB cars were all rebuilt to full Amtrak specs for running gear and trucks. They suffered from Amtrak in things such as routing of the HEP cables and water supply systems.

The lower speeds were mainly in view of all the flat car equipment and the comfort of both human occupants and animals.

No passenger carrying business makes a profit. Any body who tell you an airline makes a profit is not paying attention to all the subsidies they get from the government, both direct and indirect subsidies. You cannot charge the actual price you would need to cover your costs, let alone make a profit. Even you car looses money.

amtrakbill Wrote:
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> If it was run by one of those companies it would
> make money
> Guaranteed!
>
> Posted from iPhone


How! Remember the original Auto Train and what happened to it?

OliveHeights Wrote:
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> Liability insurance would be a major cost right
> off the top for a single route operation like Auto
> Train.

Exactly. After the derailments (cited above) suffered by the original Auto-Train Corp., Amtrak became the only operation with deep enough pockets willing to revive it.

RailNet802, out

There is a difference between making a profit and making enough profit. Sure Autotrain may make a small profit each year but never enough to cover capital expenses. It has to make enough to maintain what equipment you have running, fund and debt service on the current operation, throw off enough cash to buy new equipment in future, and pay investors along the way. Don't forget a rainy day fund for the derailment and replacement of wrecked equipment. No chance in hell any passenger train will ever make that kind of money.

Posted from iPhone