Passenger Trains > Are Cement ties better than wood ties on the NEC ?

What protions of the NEC use cement ties ? What speed are wood ties good till ? Wood ties rot faster , so then need to be replaced more but there are  less Expensive.

611Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What protions of the NEC use cement ties ? What
> speed are wood ties good till ? Wood ties rot
> faster , so then need to be replaced more but
> there are  less Expensive.

Wikipedia has a nice write up on the pros and cons of the different types of ties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_tie

Also, implementation and quality control count.  Amtrak bought new concrete ties from
Rocla Concrete Tie Inc., in a sweetheart deal (Rocla is located inside the Amtrak maintenance
base at Bear, DE) to replace wooden ones on the NEC but they were defective.  Rocla replaced
the ties but Amtrak had to eat the labor to remove the defective concrete ties and install the
replacements.  As one would expect, it was a HUGE job and Amtrak was out-of-pocket by
close to a hundred million dollars (not counting losses due to delays to trains) with no recourse
since that was according to the contract that they signed along with Rocla. 

Metro-North bought concrete ties from Rocla, too, and they turned out to be defective. 
But M-N came out better in the deal...they sued, because that wasn't precluded in their
contract.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/18 09:51 by GenePoon.

Dunno when they started concrete ties on the NEC
(just the two fast tracks, to start with). I'm guessing
125 mph was allowed on wood ties, somewhere
sometime.

At a given speed, might well be a quieter ride on wood.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/18 10:24 by timz.

the original NEC concrete ties were pulled early due to failures in the material.

did they last even a decade?
 

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, implementation and quality control count. 
> Amtrak bought new concrete ties from
> Rocla Concrete Tie Inc., in a sweetheart deal
> (Rocla is located inside the Amtrak maintenance
> base at Bear, DE) to replace wooden ones on the
> NEC but they were defective.  Rocla replaced
> the ties but Amtrak had to eat the labor to remove
> the defective concrete ties and install the
> replacements.  As one would expect, it was a HUGE
> job and Amtrak was out-of-pocket by
> close to a hundred million dollars (not counting
> losses due to delays to trains) with no recourse
> since that was according to the contract that they
> signed along with Rocla. 
>
> Metro-North bought concrete ties from Rocla, too,
> and they turned out to be defective. 
> But M-N came out better in the deal...they sued,
> because that wasn't precluded in their
> contract.

Wow tax payers screwed again.... I wonder who got a kick back from Rocla for given them the contract......100 Million down the draing....that would have been nice to support the SW Chief....
You can get baboons to do a better job......

As said, wood ties offer a quieter ride.

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Metro-North bought concrete ties from Rocla, too,
> and they turned out to be defective. 
> But M-N came out better in the deal...they sued,
> because that wasn't precluded in their
> contract.

MBTA also sued Rocla, and reached an out-of-court settlement, reported to be in the neighborhood of $6 million. MBTA ended up replacing the defective ties on the Old Colony Lines with...wood.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/11/11/settles-suit-with-rail-tie-maker-for/ztTneKuBYNU2boEVFujKBP/story.html

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/18 13:26 by Dcmcrider.

FEC concrete ties, on the other hand, lasted for decades. In wet, saturated areas, with stone and sand trains.

Deep, groomed ballast helps, but expert vendor selection can't be beat.

Posted from Android

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, implementation and quality control count. 
> Amtrak bought new concrete ties from
> Rocla Concrete Tie Inc., in a sweetheart deal
> (Rocla is located inside the Amtrak maintenance
> base at Bear, DE) to replace wooden ones on the
> NEC but they were defective.  Rocla replaced
> the ties but Amtrak had to eat the labor to remove
> the defective concrete ties and install the
> replacements.  As one would expect, it was a HUGE
> job and Amtrak was out-of-pocket by
> close to a hundred million dollars (not counting
> losses due to delays to trains) with no recourse
> since that was according to the contract that they
> signed along with Rocla. 
>
> Metro-North bought concrete ties from Rocla, too,
> and they turned out to be defective. 
> But M-N came out better in the deal...they sued,
> because that wasn't precluded in their
> contract.

Actually the first 1.0 million concrete ties on the NEC were manufactured by Santa Fe - San Vel and while exhibiting some slow spider cracking seemed to perform well.  Whether any, and if so how many, are still in track I don't know but that was forty years ago.  Then came about 0.3 million from Lone Star that were real problems and had also been installed on CSX and elsewhere.  Rocla only started supplying ties in 1990 with defects found in production from seven of the next eleven years.  In 2003 a new specification was adopted which appears to still be in use and still manufactured by Rocla.  As to whether they have a sweetheart deal or not I have no idea.

Gordon

The archilles heel of concrete ties is the "alkali reactivity" that some combinations of cement and aggregate stone exhibit.
It is a detailed, technical quality specification that requires vendors (in this case the tie manufacturers) to certify their sources of materials as passing ASTM tests to demonstrate no risk of alkali reactivity.
I had potential vendors to Metrolink offer a cost reduction to their bid if we would waive this test.  We denied the waiver but maybe some other customers did not specify it or accepted the lower cost materials.
Alkali reactions take years to manifest themselves.  They cause the concrete matrix to gradually expand, first causing a web of small cracks to appear then advancing to where the concrete no longer is bound to the reinforcing tendons or rail seats, causing gross structual failures; the concrete tries to turn into sand and gravel.
This has been a problem for other concrete users.  I remember the California Division of Highways )now Caltrans) had many concrete structures on Highway 101 that failed, including some SP underpasses.
Technical competence and disciplined application of quality procedures are the defense.
Cost savings by people who will be gone in a very few years is the advesary.
Railroads of course are in the long game and will have to deal with the consequences at some time in the future.

Dcmcrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Metro-North bought concrete ties from Rocla,
> too,
> > and they turned out to be defective. 
> > But M-N came out better in the deal...they
> sued,
> > because that wasn't precluded in their
> > contract.
>
> MBTA also sued Rocla, and reached an out-of-court
> settlement, reported to be in the neighborhood of
> $6 million. MBTA ended up replacing the defective
> ties on the Old Colony Lines with...wood.
>
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/11/11/settl
> es-suit-with-rail-tie-maker-for/ztTneKuBYNU2boEVFu
> jKBP/story.html

On the Needham Branch too.....