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Date: 01/23/23 11:48
Amtrak 14
Author: brbigelow

Just no

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/23/23 12:14
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: RevRandy

But why?



Date: 01/23/23 12:20
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: brbigelow

Sorry for the cut off message. I’m on Amtrak 14. We just left Klamath Falls at 11:32 due to no rested crew from 11’s late arrival last night. Just another example of Gardner’s cost cutting to have no extra board. Since I will miss my connection to train 28 in Portland, I’ll get a 24 hour stay in Portland at Amtrak’s expense.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/23/23 13:22
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: pdt

Those ivory tower executives just HATE paying someone to be on call for emergencies. 

Its part of the cost of providing service in the transportation industry.    Money 1st, service...eh..who cares.



Date: 01/23/23 13:55
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: Short-Hood-Lead

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those ivory tower executives just HATE paying
> someone to be on call for emergencies. 
>
> Its part of the cost of providing service in the
> transportation industry.    Money 1st,
> service...eh..who cares.

Only correction: BONUS Money 1st



Date: 01/23/23 14:24
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: amtrak34east

Heck, I'm just hoping to make my connection to #14 from #5 tonight.

Posted from Android



Date: 01/23/23 16:30
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: Railbaron

brbigelow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just no

Correct answer - for no extra board at Klamath Falls.

I am sorry to hear that for whatever reason #11 was late enough into Klamath Falls that you departed very late due to no rested crew. However, is it realistic to expect Amtrak to establish extra boards at every away from home location they go to? Who will pay for having all these people sitting around waiting for a call that may never come? There are locations all around the country that are away from home terminals for Amtrak crews that come from opposite directions such as Klamath Falls; do each of these locations deserve an extra board for a just in case moment? Having no extra board at Klamath Falls is nothing new, there has never been one there so why would not having one today equate to somebody getting a bonus. 

I have no idea why #11 was late to begin with but if it was caused by an avoidable occurrence, such as a UP screw-up, maybe putting more priority on passenger trains should be the way to go so late crews won't be an issue. 



Date: 01/23/23 16:53
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: DavidP

Seems to occasionally be a problem at Minot, ND as well.

Dave



Date: 01/23/23 16:54
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: pdt

FWIW....The transportation industry has been trying to minimize extra board/reserve employees for years.  It sucks.  They just want to employ the minimum # of ppl, and go way lower than what is reasonable.  

Is KFS an out station, where crews just overnight...not a crew base?   Id think any crew base should have at least 1 extra board person. What do u do when someone gets sick? 

 



Date: 01/23/23 16:58
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: TAW

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I am sorry to hear that for whatever reason #11
> was late enough into Klamath Falls that you
> departed very late due to no rested crew. However,
> is it realistic to expect Amtrak to establish
> extra boards at every away from home location they
> go to?

Once upon a time in a land that time forgot, The Chief Dispatcher's duty included making sure that there were crews available when important trains were due. We would do something requiring advanced knowledge no longer avialable - compare the arrival time of the imprtant train to the arrival and rest of the crew that stands for it. If there was no crew at the time the important train was due, we would deadhead a crew from the board at the home terminal to handle the train. Yeah, on a one train a day wooden axle outfit, that means cross deadheading. The customers don't much care about that and were it not a wooden axle outfit, the cross deadheading wouldn't be necessary.

Oh, and Chief Dispatcher? Not any more. There is a control center that appears to let things run on automatic.

TAW



Date: 01/23/23 20:07
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: PNWDivision10

Amtrak 11 had numerous things happen last night….passenger emergency, another passenger jumping off train, and then the hitting of a boulder that landed on the tracks and a rock slide that hit the side of the train. Then the crew died on HOS at Chemult so the SAC crew had to wait for pilots and head for Chemult to grab #11. Yes, that meant #14 having to wait for half of the crew to be rested this morning.

It’s not easy to call another qualified crew out of PDX to deadhead down to Klamath Falls when PTI, Hallcon, and taxi services are short handed and when ride share services (Uber / Lyft) deny the calls. And having an extraboard at EVERY outlying layover terminal just isn’t feasible or practical.



Date: 01/23/23 20:14
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: Railbaron

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is KFS an out station, where crews just
> overnight...not a crew base?  

Klamath Falls is an away from home terminal for Amtrak crews out of both Portland and Sacramento, not realistic to have an extra board there.

I know that in the past, although to my knowledge not recently, Amtrak has been known to deadhead a crew from Portland to Klamath Falls to protect #14. There are multiple issues with this in that the deadhead counts against the crews' Hours of Service. The deadhead crew would have to get rest to reset their hours. Even if the crew arrives perfectly to step out of the deadhead transportation (crew van) and onto the train they would have multiple hours already against their Hours of Service. The result is even the relief crew would almost certainly die before reaching Portland so now you'd have to get yet another crew involved in the operation. Like it or not there is a finite number of crews available.

One issue with Klamath Falls in particular is that the time differential between #11 and #14 is not much more than what is required for a crew to get legally rested. Any substantial delay to #11 will result in a delay for #14. This works the other way as well as a late #14 in the morning can affect #11 that night for the Sacramento crew, although that time differential is a bit more forgiving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/23 21:33 by Railbaron.



Date: 01/23/23 20:16
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: PNWDivision10

Also….if you want a one or two person extraboard at each layover point, which in turn would be the home terminal for these extraboard crews, you’re going to have to hire a Trainmaster, Road Foreman, and Assignment Clerk for each layover point as well…as that’s in the contract and rules for crews to have immediate supervision at “home terminals”….so it just doesn’t make sense to have an extraboard at each layover point.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/23/23 21:41
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: BigSkyBlue

I don't think anyone is seriously advocating an assigned extra board at a point that is strictly an away from home terminal such as Klamath Falls or Minot.  But, deadheading a crew from the home terminal to cover a train whose crew has run afoul of the hours of service law has been a standard soiution to this type of problem since, oh, since the hours of service law was enacted.   But now we hear, we can't because of laying off or cutting too many people, we can't because we can't hire enough, we can't because the contract crew drivers are short of people, we can't, we can't, we can't.  And now, some are bringing up the point in this thread that we can't because after deadheading a crew to the dead train, they no longer have enough time to work to finish the run.  Well, if the runs are so long (and they usually are on Amtrak) that that is the case, it's just rinse the situation and repeat.  Maybe some folks aren't aware that it is not unusual for freight railroad trains to take four or five crews to move over just one division.  This is the cost of moving trains when problems arise.  It doesn't seem unreasonable for Amtrak on runs as long as Portland to Klamath Falls or Klamath Falls to Sacramento to need three crews to make the trip in the event of bad weather, derailments, or other problems.  But getting rid of the manpower "margin" to allow this when there is trouble has been a primary objective of rail management since the 1980's.  The thing that has kept some of the margin around is the desire to move trains and customers, or customers freight.  However, this is less and less of a priority for both the freight railroads and Amtrak, and it seems that Amtrak is more and more likely to just say we can't because we don't have crews at the home terminal or anywhere else when there is a problem and just cancel the train.   BSB



Date: 01/24/23 12:54
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: Goatboat

PNWDivision10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s not easy to call another qualified crew out of PDX to deadhead down to Klamath Falls when PTI, Hallcon, and taxi services are short handed and
> when ride share services (Uber / Lyft) deny the calls. And having an extraboard at EVERY outlying layover terminal just isn’t feasible or practical.

Excellent points.  Portland to Klamath Falls is a five hour drive. By the time you get a crew there, and they get on the train, if there are any delays enroute they may be on very short hours by the time they get near Eugene.  

Once upon a time, Amtrak occasionally flew operating crews from Portland to Klamath Falls on commuter flights. Unfortunately, there is no air service to Klamath Falls anymore, so that option is gone. 



Date: 01/24/23 19:50
Re: Amtrak 14
Author: Quakerengr

In the early years of Warren Buffet's ownership of Big Orange,  on occasion they used his private jets to deadhead crews from Galesburg, Il to La Crosse, Wis.  I never caught one of those flights, however the crews that did enjoyed the hospitality  and the short time  for that deadhead.  Yes,  a couple folks did not want to fly and they ended up riding on a 12 hr train..

Great post BSB,

PWM



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