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Date: 09/03/05 10:55
Security on NOL specials
Author: MEKoch

I would hope that Amtrak will insist on high security aboard these special trains. Having worked with people on trains who are angry, tired, etc., there is a high potential for equipment damage. Literally, they will trash the trains in their frustration and anger.

One police officer/national guardsmen, etc. per car would be appropriate.




Date: 09/03/05 11:14
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: puckeringswine

CNN reporting the first train of 650 people has left for Dallas. I am sure security is needed. I hope Amtrak is highly successful in this mission. I am sure these trains will not make money either, but it is further proof that Amtrak should be expanding without regard to profitability. It's to bad Mineta's dog and pony show was not there to greet the train in Dallas.



Date: 09/03/05 11:14
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: BNSF1088

And there all on there just like you said.



Date: 09/03/05 12:00
Re: No media coverage
Author: poultrycar

It would be nice if someone would leak this information to the media. We are tired of seeing the same footage over and over.



Date: 09/03/05 13:00
Re: No media coverage
Author: BNSF1088

I have sent the video that i took of the train passing my house in Cade LA to CNN you can view it here

www.saveourtrainsmississippi.com



Date: 09/03/05 14:32
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: wigwagfan

puckeringswine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it is further proof that Amtrak should be
> expanding without regard to profitability. It's to
> bad Mineta's dog and pony show was not there to
> greet the train in Dallas.

Amtrak running this train is not a matter of "profitabilty", nor is it "proof" that Amtrak should expand. The people in New Orleans need to be evacuated for their safety, and Amtrak happens to have the resources available to assist (although, in typical government fashion, only one train, and a day or two after the private airlines already began their private relief efforts.)

Under your logic, it would also be "proof" that the airlines should get a massive bailout, too, because they have contributed numerous aircraft to the same exact operation, that the airport should be expanded because it is the major operating trauma center, and airlines should be freed from the constraints of profitability (in other words, the government should take over the airlines and create AmAir.) Same goes for the numerous busses called up to action, I guess the feds should create AmBus out of Greyhound. It just happens that Amtrak is owned by the federal government; if it were still owned by the private railroads, they would be equally called upon to help (for example, in 1996, the Willamette Valley in Oregon suffered substantial floods, and the Willamette & Pacific Railroad graciously gathered some privately owned passenger cars and began a shuttle within Albany to move stranded people to shelter.) BNSF also has notified local officials that it will make resources available to move equipment into the area using its track, locomotives, cars and personnel, so should BNSF be federalized too?

And, for the record to bring this back on topic, the first relief flight operated by United Airlines did indeed carry a number of TSA inspectors who would handle security screening for those evacuees who would board planes bound for San Antonio and Chicago.



Date: 09/03/05 14:32
Re: No media coverage
Author: czephyr17

Thanks for posting the video. Three sightseer lounge cars and a diner.

<Having worked with people on trains who are angry, tired, etc., there is a high potential for equipment damage>

Amtrak people deal with it frequently on the Sunset and the Coast Starlate. Nothing new for them. :-)

Seriously, my prayers go out to all of the people involved in this tragedy, and that they can get back on their feet. And to the families of those who have been lost to us. New Orleans is a great city that is such a vibrant part of the overall American culture that its loss is unimaginable. We need to help the residents heal so they can rebuild.



Date: 09/03/05 16:33
Lafayette, LA news story on NOL specials
Author: GenePoon

Lafayette Daily Advertiser news story:

http://www.theadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article

The trip from New Orleans went smoothly, said Amtrak engineer Gilbert
Isaacs, and said his heart went out to the gentle people who had gone
through so much.

"The rumors about people from New Orleans bringing violence is
just a very small minority," he said. "These people are simply
suffering. They are the most decent people I've ever had on board.
They picked up the trash and kept the cars clean."

Salvation Army volunteer Lester Wright, who passed out water, snacks
and sandwiches to the refugees as they walked from the train to the
bus, said he was moved by their presence.

"These are the most humble, beat down people I've every
seen," he said.



Date: 09/03/05 17:48
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: NateF40Amtrak

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would hope that Amtrak will insist on high
> security aboard these special trains. Having
> worked with people on trains who are angry, tired,
> etc., there is a high potential for equipment
> damage. Literally, they will trash the trains in
> their frustration and anger.
>
> One police officer/national guardsmen, etc. per
> car would be appropriate.
>
>



What kind of train is this? A Hitler Nazi train to take people to death camps or one to save fellow AMERICANS who have lost everything, and in some cases very close loved ones. Yeah, let’s put some SS troops on this train to enforce order. NOT!
!
All you can think of is a stupid Superliner coach getting damage? Who cares about the coaches at this point? How come no one did anything days ago to assist the folks days ago? If you wish to think about something, ponder that! Next time a natural disaster takes place, it can strike anyone of us at anytime. I don’t think that you would care much about Amtrak and the condition of the coaches if you were in a pair of their shoes. And I don’t want to hear that they should of left days ago. Some people in this world forget about the other classes below us in this society, great land we call America. Everyone does not have the means to leave when the government tells us to leave. When you are living pay check to pay check, only making 8 bucks an hours and trying to keep food in your mouth and the lights on, how can you leave? You can’t even afford the gas to get 200 miles away. Oh wait, you have to have a car first. They went to the bus station and to the airport only to find that services were canceled.

Now don't get me wrong, I am glad Amtrak is doing what they can. But here are people who are very less fortunate and nature just got the best of them.

I am glad someone in America, Kanye West, spoke up about this major issue in a different prospective. Google him to find what he said. If you don’t like it, too freaking bad.

This just makes me disgusted. Let’s save an Amtrak coach, not lives. It is nice to know what we value the most at this point. Go shove your pipe rail dreams about passenger trains up your…….

This is the beauty of America, Freedom of Speech for everyone. These are my thoughts on this s Amtrak or NAZI train (to some) helping those affected out of the NO!




NateF40Amtrak
http://www.clevelandtrains.net




Date: 09/03/05 18:02
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: benrussellpa



Please...

Enough of the race card already. Orleans Parish is the only affected area that has a largely African American population. However, last time I checked, there were at least 13 counties/parishes in three states that were devastated by this storm.

This is not a race issue, this is a bad planning issue compounded by an inadequate use of resources to evacuate the POOR (not black or white, just poor) who could not evacuate themselves. I don't really feel sorry for the folks who had the ability to leave and didn't. I do feel sorry for the folks who had no way to get out and were not offered any help. The lack of help prior to and slow response after the hurricane has been a major problem for the poor families of the Gulf Coast.

If we were smart, the affected families would be relocated with government assistance and we would never rebuild in these highly vulnerable areas.

Percent of Persons Who Are Black or African American Alone (US Census Data)

Geography: Baldwin County, Alabama
Value: 10.3 Percent
(base = 140,415 persons)

Geography: Mobile County, Alabama
Value: 33.4 Percent
(base = 399,843 persons)

Geography: Jackson County, Mississippi
Value: 20.9 Percent
(base = 131,420 persons)

Geography: Harrison County, Mississippi
Value: 21.1 Percent
(base = 189,601 persons)

Geography: Hancock County, Mississippi
Value: 6.8 Percent
(base = 42,967 persons)

Geography: St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana
Value: 9.9 Percent
(base = 191,268 persons)

Geography: Orleans Parish, Louisiana
Value: 67.3 Percent
(base = 484,674 persons)

Geography: Jefferson Parish, Louisiana
Value: 22.9 Percent
(base = 455,466 persons)

Geography: St. Charles Parish, Louisiana
Value: 25.2 Percent
(base = 48,072 persons)

Geography: St. Bernard Parish, Louisiana
Value: 7.6 Percent
(base = 67,229 persons)

Geography: Lafourche Parish, Louisiana
Value: 12.6 Percent
(base = 89,974 persons)

Geography: Terrebonne Parish, Louisiana
Value: 17.8 Percent
(base = 104,503 persons)

Geography: Plaquemines Parish, Louisiana
Value: 23.4 Percent
(base = 26,757 persons)



Date: 09/03/05 18:41
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: TrainChaser

benrussellpa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This is not a race issue, this is a bad planning
> issue compounded by an inadequate use of resources
> to evacuate the POOR (not black or white, just
> poor) who could not evacuate themselves. I don't
> really feel sorry for the folks who had the
> ability to leave and didn't. I do feel sorry for
> the folks who had no way to get out and were not
> offered any help. The lack of help prior to and
> slow response after the hurricane has been a major
> problem for the poor families of the Gulf Coast.


Well said, Ben, I agree.



Date: 09/03/05 19:03
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: Schramman

Race is an issue here, like it or not. It shouldn't be, but it is. We have yet to reach the "promised land" that Dr. King spoke of so many years ago.

A larger issue is class. The rich and middle class could get out while the poor, old, young and sick couldn't.

Americans don't like to talk about race and class. But if we are going to make things better, we have to.

To bring this back to trains, Why wasn't an evacuation train run before the hurricane? Why no plans to evacuate those without cars? Heck, I'd ride a boxcar or even the inside of a well car to get out of that place.

Also, if Amtrak is bringing people out, is anyone (CN/IC, BNSF, KCS, etc.) bringing anything in? Food, Water, Equipment?



Date: 09/03/05 19:23
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: RFandPFan

Given the reports and actual news footage of looting and other problems, I don't think it is out of the question to mention that security should be provided aboard the train. Numerous reports of groups of thugs terrorizing victims in the Superdome should not be repeated upon these poor people while aboard the trains.

I am not surprised to see all the "race" and "political" cards being played in relation to this tragic event. Kanye West did more a disservice to the people that need help the most, than to help raise funds.

This is about helping fellow citizens through the very worst times of their lives. I have worked with FEMA in numerous hurricane relief operations and while it is terrible to see the scum that take advantage of the situation, they are most certainly a very small portion of the affected victims.

On literally every operation I have been a part of, emotions always run high. People are frustrated and at the lowest point of their lives. They have been tramatized and react accordingly. And at every single relief operation, people have complained about the response. It is understandable, given their emotions.

There will certainly be lessons learned from this disaster. Especially considering it is one of, if not the single most damaging storm in our history. To play the race card or use this as a chance to voice dissent against the current party in the White House, is ridiculous, counter-productive and ignorant.



Date: 09/03/05 19:23
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: JAChooChoo

Schramman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To bring this back to trains, Why wasn't an
> evacuation train run before the hurricane? Why no
> plans to evacuate those without cars? Heck, I'd
> ride a boxcar or even the inside of a well car to
> get out of that place.

How many evacuation trains has Amtrak ever run before? Zero

Remember that the course of the hurricane was only predictable 48 hours in advance and then the railroads were themselves evacuating.

It seems there are quite a few here who think things can be done instaneously like a one hour tv episode.

As far as evacuating those without cars, ask the state and local governments of dispersal plans for a once in a Century storm. Its easy to say "leave" but where to?

New Orleans has been a disaster waiting to happen, and should not be rebuilt below water level



Date: 09/03/05 22:08
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: puckeringswine

wigwagfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> puckeringswine Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Amtrak running this train is not a matter of
> "profitabilty", nor is it "proof" that Amtrak
> should expand.

You kind of missed my sarcastic point. IF Amtrak were not a political football and funded above starvation levels it would have been in a much better position to aid in the evacuation. A strong balanced national transportation system, is critical not only to our nations security but to emergency responce as well. If the current administration had had their way there would have been no evac trains to run.



Date: 09/03/05 23:04
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: airbrake

Schramman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To bring this back to trains, Why wasn't an
> evacuation train run before the hurricane? Why no
> plans to evacuate those without cars? Heck, I'd
> ride a boxcar or even the inside of a well car to
> get out of that place.
>
> Also, if Amtrak is bringing people out, is anyone
> (CN/IC, BNSF, KCS, etc.) bringing anything in?
> Food, Water, Equipment?

Maybe someone should ask the Governor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans these questions?



Date: 09/04/05 00:23
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: ConductorAl

Certainly it would be most appropriate to ask the municipal governments involved why they did not anticipate that a Level 4/5 storm would seriously compromise the levees and fully evacuate the city. They probably could and should have undertaken a mass evacuation through declaration of a full civil emergency once it became fairly certain that the hurricane would pass close to the city. Under such a declaration, the mayor would have emergency authority to take control over all buses in the city which could be used to move the population further inland. Another possibility with 24-36 hours before landfall might have been a request to activate the Civil Reserve Air Fleet to conduct a mass evacuation. MSY's longest runway is capable of handling heavy air transports. One fully loaded 767 could easily evacuate 1,000+ people inland in that amount of time. Had the local officials suspected that the levees might be breached, they could have evacuated many more people through activation of either CRAF or Air Mobiity Command.



Date: 09/04/05 00:34
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: pacificeclectic

Now he wants "jack booted thugs" on the trains. The New Orleans city government agencies made no effort to use the resources they had to provide evacuation alternatives to many of the residents of the city. (And I'm not sure how much to blame them.) Yet, there weren't masses of frantic people demanding government help to get out either.

There is a certain amount of "trained" behavior or complacency. Hurricane seasons have come and gone for many, many years without having this kind of strike. Had the levees not failed, New Orleans would have been a blip on the recovery screen. And had the various levels of government "forced" evacuations from any and all of the different areas threatened regularly and not hit, what difference might that have made? How many people would continue to decide to "ride it out." Hurricane predictability has certainly advanced since the disaster in Galveston but hurricane consistency hasn't changed. There are "models" which sort-of predict the path and intensities but they aren't foolproof and I'd have to think that there is a serious disconnect between the accurate predicatability of path and intensity and the time needed to actually successfully evacuate a population both immobile without assistance and unwilling to leave.

And how many "false alarms" will people tolerate before they ignore the whole affair? probably about as many as have already been presented to New Orleans.



Date: 09/04/05 07:44
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: NateF40Amtrak

RFandPFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not surprised to see all the "race" and
> "political" cards being played in relation to this
> tragic event. Kanye West did more a disservice to
> the people that need help the most, than to help
> raise funds.

Well folks, it is Sunday morning. I just watched CBS Sunday morning show. Nancy Giles summed things in the same prospective. I guess she did a disservice to "the people" too? I don’t think so. The BBC is sending reports to England about how confused we are, how come we did not help the poor ASAP, and so on. And we want to make other places around the world to follow our great model.

A personal thought on this major issue. Bush flew over to Iraq to suprise troops a couple of Thanksgivings ago in a land that is a war zone to rally the troops. He did not have the courage to fly to the Superdome to tell those folks that help is on the way. Once again, only going to select areas for the nice press photos. How does this look? In my eyes, like a bunch of crap and a huge wuss as a leader. He challenged those in Iraq to bring it one since we can handle it. Well Mother Nature brought it on with hell and high water. Where is he with his famous quotes, man power and support?


People, the truth hurts. No one cares about the poor. No one understands the poor, nor cares too. Hell, for that fact, we could really care less about each other. We all have one common interest here, trains. In some way, shape or fashion, we like trains. Outside of that, we don’t know much about each other. Isolation in a major issue, not just at Trainorders,your town or work place, but also in America.

NateF40Amtrak
http://www.clevelandtrains.net



Date: 09/04/05 08:27
Re: Security on NOL specials
Author: ts1457

NateF40Amtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People, the truth hurts. No one cares about the
> poor. No one understands that poor, nor cares
> too.

Baloney! The Louisiana emergency evacuation plan calls for the use of school buses to move those that don't have private transportation. When the levee broke Monday night, anyone that knows anything about water should know that the game was over. Yet the Mayor did nothing on Tuesday while the water slowly covered up hundreds of school buses and even more transit buses. The Louisisana governor did not put in the National Guard until Tuesday, IIRC. I guess on Monday, when it looked like NO survived, she did not want to make it look like she was running a police state.

Bush declared an emergency days ahead of the actual emergency to get the ball rolling, but the state government did not do its part in making the requests needed in a timely fashion. We do still have a Federal system, but I'm not sure for how much longer. Another thing, the Governor admitted last Sunday that the evacuation of New Orleans was being ordered because of pressure from Bush. The outcome of the disaster would have been far worse if Bush had not taken an aggressive stand from the start.

I see a hell of a lot of compassion and support being given to all people of New Orleans, regardless of status, in perhaps the worst and most difficult to deal with natural disaster in our country's history. I am sickened to see people that see this as just another opportunity to bash the President when errors were made all up and down the line.



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