Steam & Excursion > RDG 2100 Modifications

Can anyone tell me just for curiosity sake what exactly it is that was modified that made the locomotive such a dud? I understand how these things work, so i don't need a complete explanation of how a locomotive boiler/firebox drafts or how combustion takes place etc.. It was touched upon in the thread below but its hard to sift through all the other stuff in the thread to see if anyone really said what exactly it was that caused the locomotive to have mechanical/firing issues.

Also, if this turns in to a flame fest or goes off topic i will request that the thread be pulled. I'm not at all interested in the business conducted by Mr Payne, nor am i all that interested in the rail fan rumor mill and subsequent bashing of Mr. Payne. I've heard and seen all i need to in that department.

Thanks!

Jeff

I have no direct knowledge of the engine, but it sounds like it was converted to oil without redesigning the drafting and other things that should go with the conversion. It's not just a case of pull the grates and put in a burner, there are many other considerations involved. Also the fuel makes a big difference.
Someone with steam knowledge who is familiar with the situation should be along shortly and enlighten us.

Hi Jeff,
The Big Problem Causer in the 2100 is the way it is now fired. When they switched from coal to oil, instead of a traditional installation of an atomizer in the front of the firebox, they put a steel plate over the firedoor and mounted a furnace type burner (that's what it looked like) to the plate, and it seemed to direct the fire towards the rear tube/flue sheet.It also was said the capacity of the burner used was not enough to keep the heat in the firebox uniform, no matter where it was placed, which resulted in damage to the firebox itself...other than that, I don't think there was anything else drastically modified,this was what I saw when it was at Ceeco getting new tubes and some throttle work. Also keep in mind, I never fired the locomotive and only saw it operate once, and may or may not know what I'm talking about...

Cheers, Dave

Also, they burned used motor oil and that the BTU rating is not high enough due to impurities and sometimes anti-freeze/water being in the concoction.

First, The 2100 conversion to oil as far as the burner was concerned is described above.

Second, Payne apparently did Not see the need for a fire pan and fire brick, so steel plate was simply welded down right over the coal grates.

Third, There is/was nothing wrong with using waste motor oil as a fuel for oil fired steam locomotives. The UP 844 & 3985, as well as SP 4449 have all been using waste oil for many, many years without any problems at all. HOW the waste oil was "blown" into #2100's fire box, with out any fire brick, was the major issue.

Fourth, Although not mentioned by anyone so far, #2100 has a bent side rod! Thus, initial "test runs around the yard" up in London, Ont. produced numerous overheated rod bearings, prior to the 2100 ever "hitting the main line". When the locomotive was on its flatcar, en route to British Columbia, for transfer to the USA & Tacoma, the CP 2816 steam crew looked her over and plainly saw the bent rod. I'm sure Ross Roland would be glad to give you the full story of when/how the rod was "borrowed" off the 2100 when the Chessie Steam Special encountered a "problem" back in Ohio.

Fifth, Payne even tried "burning" vegetable oil in the poor 2100! Don't think there even got enough steam up to blow the whistle, let alone move.

Thanks gentlemen. Please excuse me while i find a corner to hide in the fetal position.

We also use waste oil in the 2472.

Thanks Again,

Jeff



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/10 11:55 by CDTX.

The waste oil has air pollution problems in some jurisdictions. A So Cal museum steam operator was notified to cease using it by Smog Board, they had to buy commercial fuel.

So...No firebrick? I saw the plates welded to the grates, but I thought the brick was out for the tube job...Yikes

Cheers, Dave

Jack, which side has the bent side rod? I got a couple of pictures of 2100 at CEECO the weekend of the 4449/844 doubleheaders.

Actually S.P. 2472 burns processed waste oil purchased from a licensed recycler. They process it with a centrifuge (IIRC) and possibly other processes to remove additives and impurities.
- Doug Debs

Early experiments to burn oil in locomotive fireboxes - on relatively small narrow-firebox 4-4-0s or 4-6-0s - used with a forward-facing burner in a firebrick trough under the firedoor. The firebrick trough replaced the coal grates. Generally this was combined with a brick arch extending back and up from the bottom of the tube sheet - just like in a coal-burner - to force the flame and hot gases to take a roundabout "S"-shaped path to the tube sheet. The problem is that when working hard, the flame wanted to lift up out of the firebrick trough. This resulted in increased crown sheet and sidesheet maintenance. Moving the burner to the front of the firebox firebrick trough, so it's pointing towards the firedoor, was the solution.
- Doug Debs

Good Lord! I guess I've heard just about everything now.
Well, other than a Grainger furnace burner, no brickwork, burner in the wrong end, crappy fuel and a bent side rod, I guess she's OK?
Somebody ought to do some jail time for that one along with the guy who runs around painting whitewalls, etc, on all the stuffed and mounted engines who never had them.

Just for general knowledge what does the firebrick on the firepan do?

The same thing a firebrick does in a natural gas space heater. Heating the fire brick produces a red hot radiate heat transfer that continues to eminate from the firebrick making for a hotter fire box. If you just throw flame out in the open air very little heat is produced.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/10 14:49 by tomstp.

Insulates the pan and directs the flame front aka the heat
in the proper direction. It also aids in keeping heat in the
firebox. As to the blower, were they running it (AC motor)
off the turbo??

The firebrick does a lot more than insulate the fire pan. The fire pan is normally filled with poured Serel (sp?) furnace cement. Firebrick are then stacked in multiple rows, at least a foot thick, all around the side sheets, throat sheet, and door sheet, at least two feet high. You simply wouldn't believe how much firebrick is in the firebox of 4449, 844, and 3985.

All that firebrick helps retain heat and is thus slower to react to quick temp changes, which would be catastrophic to the sheets and stay bolts if there was no brick or fire pan at all. Thus, 2100's firebox is like a big lawn sprinkler when under pressure, according to many witnesses.

That's exactly right, Jack. I won't get into all the atrocious things I saw when I was around it but one major problem was that because of the sometimes downright awful treatment it received, the firebox DID appear to leak badly, which resulted in the engine losing water at an alarming rate when standing (obviously when running as well). Couple this with the fact that the feed-water pump didn't work AT ALL, at least for the first few runs, and the injector was QUITE difficult to start (I know how to start an injector), and we are lucky that it ended without a major mishap. I'll discuss privately some of the other problems I saw first-hand if anyone wants to know, but this is enough for now.

Scott Gordon, MRSR

nycman,

Forgot to answer your question about which side the bent rod is on. I can't remember, but I doubt that you could see it in photos. The CP guys said that you first have to realize what you are really looking at, stare at it for a bit, then you will see it. But, I can't remember which side it was on. Ross Roland would know.

Although all that has been done to RDG 2100 is truly unfortunate, I hope it doesn't get scrapped.

Locomotives in worse condition have been rescued. In my home town of Kamloops BC, ex-CN 2-8-0 2141 runs in excursion service throughout the summer. Fifteen years ago, the city was prepared to scrap it because it was so deteriorated. New cab, new tender, new cab fittings, and most recently, re-machined running gear (bent side rod since in service days).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/10 20:30 by eminence_grise.

Holy Crap, I can't believe what I'm reading on this thread. Those guys have to be super lucky! Not to mention FRA violations on the feedwater system and balky injector. Gotta have two sources guys.
Doyle and I were BSing once and he said the first one to blow up will be the last one to run. If this sort of crap is going on, folks need to step up and stop it or the whole community will suffer, not to mention collateral damage or lives lost. Where the hell do these people come from?