Steam & Excursion > UP844 Tube Photos

These photos were forwarded to me by a source that wishes to remain anonymous. There has been a lot of discussion about the condition of 844 lately, and other than hearsay we have not known just how bad things were. From what I have heard through the grapevine that during the last few years some plumbing changes were made by the current steam team. As a result, scale accumulated inside the boiler reached a critical level, requiring removal of the tubes. These photos do not show the full extent of the scaling as this is what the tubes looked like after they were yanked and banged around a bit.

I don't think I need to say much more as this thread will be the equivalent of throwing a rock at a hornet's nest. Please refrain from engaging with online fist fights and hopefully we can keep the discussions sane.

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

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Three more images

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

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Having worked on the rebuild of SP786 here in Austin, TX, Wow!

Enough said.

Just got the latest "Northern Lines" from the Friends of 261. There is an article and photo of new flues/tubes for 844, the work outshopped to the 261 crew.

webmaster Wrote:
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> Three more images


"The Emperor has no clothes."

sptno Wrote:
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> Having worked on the rebuild of SP786 here in
> Austin, TX, Wow!
>
> Enough said.

Imagine what the boiler interior must look like.

I wonder what 3985's flues and boiler interior
look like, since that engine didn't get the
"benefit" of the "new and better" plumbing and
procedures that caused this mess.

Silly me, I'm sure this was someone else's fault.

was this due to the water not being treated?

Thank you for the 844 update, it's good to see progress being made toward correcting the problem. I can only imagine how hard it was to remove the piping. Does the 844 contain an automatic and manual blowdown valve?

czuleget Wrote:
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> was this due to the water not being treated?


Not exactly. The treatment was changed from the tried and true chemicals used by most everybody to something sourced from a pool chemical company. The MSDS sheet, among other things, states that this chemical becomes corrosive when exposed to chlorine. Since most of the boiler water is sourced from municipal water systems, some amount of chlorine is pretty much a safe bet. It was noted and reported that any water, be it steam or liquid that came in contact with anyone around the 844 caused a burning feeling consistant with what acid would feel like. This is what that "acid" did to the inside. This is just the tubes, what about the boiler interior, feedwater pump, injectors, tender, etc ? Also the decision was made to change the blowdown and boiler wash procedures resulting in very large amounts of what had to be acidic sludge building up in the bottom of the boiler. Obviously, the results of all of these changes are pretty serious and were totally unnecessary.

It seems it's time to share this photo taken during the FRA visit in January. You can come to your own conclusions

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Any word on if this was caught soon enough to prevent irreplaceable damage?

For those of us who don't have intimate contact with working steam, what should "normal" used boiler tubes look like when they are removed?

EmpireBuilder wrote:

> It seems it's time to share this photo taken during the FRA visit in January. You can come to your own conclusions

A lot of us reading this board don't know enough about boilers and how they are supposed to look to properly assess what we are looking at. Please fill us in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/14 16:43 by Evan_Werkema.

This may be the all-time 'I told you so moment' on TO. Wonder what the top brass in Omaha think of these photos?

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
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> For those of us who don't have intimate contact
> with working steam, what should "normal" used
> boiler tubes look like when they are removed?
>
> EmpireBuilder wrote:
>
> > It seems it's time to share this photo taken
> during the FRA visit in January. You can come to
> your own conclusions
>
> A lot of us reading this board don't know enough
> about boilers and how they are supposed to look to
> properly assess what we are looking at. Please
> fill us in.

TO "steam crew expert" "UP6936" should be able to answer all your questions.

Oiy-vey! Me thinks the fecal matter is going to hit the oscillating device!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/14 16:54 by 4000Class.

The Rebuild done last on the 844 including the firebox replacement was intended to make future operation and maintenance as turn key as possible for future generations.
I guess you have to be careful who you give the keys to.
Steve

So what is this pool chemical? Hard to believe it is a pool chemical since 90% of pools use chlorine and corrosive chemicals are harsh on the swimmers. Also chlorine in itself is corrosive to equipment and swimmers so adding a chemical that is more corrosive when with chlorine in a pool just add to swimmer discomfort. As for municipal water systems don't use chlorine as much as they used to since using chlorine gas is the preferred method of disinfection and can be difficult to get. They use of uv sanitation is more common along with adding chlorimines. Jack I have never proclaimed to be an expert just share what I have observed while with the new and old crew. Mistakes happen and if you try something new and then it works wow how would that go over. Back to my popcorn.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/14 17:23 by UP6936.

So....

Based on the photo of the cut-away of the tube sheet, it appears to me that a significant part of the boiler shell was so choked with loose scale that water circulation was essentially impossible as designed, which would lead to severely reduced steaming capacity and potentially extreme hot-spots in the tubes, flues and flue sheets.

Then there's the question of what the boiler shell looks like once they get that crap outta there.

**sigh**

Steve Krause
Chillicothe, IL

UP6936 Wrote:
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> So what is this pool chemical? Hard to believe it
> is a pool chemical since 90% of pools use chlorine
> and corrosive chemicals are harsh on the swimmers.
> Also a lot of municipal water systems use uv and a
> chlorimines rather than chlorine. The amount of
> chlorine used in municipal water is less than
> 1ppm. Just wondering what the chemical is.

I used to work in the pool/spa business and we used muriatic acid to acid wash plaster pools, but I wouldn't know about using it in steam locomotives...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/14 17:53 by 5-String.

Guys...I've seen steam locomotives being cut up on five continents (literally and actually), with better looking tubes in 'em than these. I know thousands of you out there are lamenting that 844 and 3985 aren't going to be in service any too soon. Ok. I hear you. But PLEASE don't anybody do this to 4014.