Steam & Excursion > Any words on the future of 2816?

  CP2816 is a beautiful engine.  Any words on her future?

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A great looking locomotive. I hope she will get out someday. Out Canadian friends might know what is going on with her.

Isn't it true that as long as "EHH" (E. Hunter Harrison)
is the CP's CEO, no steam locomotive will be
allowed to run on the CP?  Such a shame.....
The "Empress" is a very nice and very good-
looking locomotive who deserves to run at
speed on the main line.

(BTW -- I wonder when she is due for her next
boiler inspection.  Canada still requires this to
be done every 5 years, I think.)

I wish there was a change of heart with regards to the 2816 operating, it is just such a waste to have her sitting.  I'm glad I got to see her in person.

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Did CP disband their steam department or are they still on the payroll?

Canadian regs are very similar to FRA Part 230, except that the Canuks
require ditch lights and event recorders on steam.

Realist ---
I have no idea whether or not the CP still has
any Steam Program employees on its payroll,
but I would doubt it.  When EHH took over the
CP on June 29, 2012, that was the de facto end
of the CP's Steam Program.  AFAIK.

EHH had a well-deserved reputation for doing a
massive amount of cost-cutting while he was the
CN''s CEO.  The CN had a strict "no steam" policy
while he was there.  Or so I understood.  (In spite of
that, the 2860 did manage to run a few trips on the
former BC Rail, now (and then) the CN) while he was
the CEO.  Go figure.....)

And I only said the Canadians require a complete
boiler inspection every 5 years because that is what
the folks at the 2860 group said on their FaceBook page.
If that is not true, and they do, indeed, get 15 years, that
is great, but is a moot point if the CP will not let them run.

I very much hope I am wrong about the CP's current
policy of not allowing steam locomotives to run on their
tracks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/15 13:38 by Margaret_SP_fan.

    Always seemed to me the 'no steam under any circumstances' is normally nothing more than a personal uneducated hatred of the entire steam group and personnel instead of a true and proper business decision due to being overloaded with other trains to run. 

Haruo, beautiful shots of a beautiful locomotive.  Scene back in 2004 at Red Wing, MN.

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Realist Wrote:
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> Did CP disband their steam department or are they
> still on the payroll?

Two of them retired, one has transferred to another department entirely, and one is still based in Calgary but has been given a number of other responsibilities, often taking him out of town, including operating the CPR business and Holiday trains. I don't think there has been any official closing of the program, because the other special trains still operate, just no operation of the steam engine at this point. My understanding is that it has about a year and a half left on the boiler certification. I get the impression that the lack of steam operation is more a result of EHH cutting the ranks so thin that all warm bodies that can be spared are being used elsewhere due to crew shortages, rather than an official "the steam locomotive will no longer operate" stance. I think it's more just a result of other policy changes.

Posted from iPhone

Hi nycman,

    Thank you for your kind words.  So she was in Red Wing, MN.  It is a nice nostalgic shot that makes many feel (s)he was there. Hope she makes many more trips

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Nice pans!

A for CP #2816, Canadian Pacific's lease is about to expire and the
engine will be sent back to Steamtown - hence the reason they
have not worked on either 2317 nor 3254.  Expect to see #2816
carry the torch running trips to Moscow until B&M #3713 is done.

Wait, it's not April fools yet, is it?

Kidding, of course.  'Shame, great looking engine.  Would be nice to
see it leased elsewhere if not used while she still has some time.

/Mitch

As long as EHH is at CP, the 2816 won't turn a wheel.  It is too bad he is anti- just about anything that may create good PR.  CN could have used it in my area when they took over EJ&E.

CN on this side of the border was no-steam since some of Bill Benson's mishaps with the 2102 in the late 1960s, including one trip where the engine seized up a main bearing and blocked the single-track mainline.  After that, the GTW HQ in Detroit was completely anti-steam, until it got dissolved into Montreal in the early 1990s.

re: the 5- year rule for boiler re-builds in Canada:  if you know of some specific reference to Transport Canada for such a rule, I would like to see it.  Going back 20-30 years ago, Transport Canada had removed all steam-engine rules and codes from its standards.  Thus, if you ran on the national rail network inter-province you technically didn't need any inspection of your engine.  As an oddity, if you ran intra-province only you were subject to inspection at the province level.  (Note that this was exactly opposite of U.S. rules).  I presume since then Transport Canada has changed their rules - does anyone know of a reference to specifics?

Chris.

(i) A person qualified according to section 4.(a) shall perform the annual inspection after 368 calendar days have elapsed from the time of the previous annual inspection. This inspection shall include all daily, all 31 service day, all 92 service day, and all annual inspection items. (See appendix B)
(ii) A person qualified according to section 4 (a) shall perform a flexible staybolt and cap inspection in accordance with Section 41 at each fifth annual inspection

A person qualified according to section 4.(a) shall perform the annual inspection after 368 calendar days have elapsed from the time of the previous annual inspection. This inspection shall include all daily, all 31 service day, all 92 service day, and all annual inspection items. (See appendix B)
Before any steam locomotive is initially put in service or brought out of retirement, and after every 1472 service days or 15 years, whichever is earlier, a person qualified according to section
4(a) shall inspect the entire boiler. In the case of a new locomotive or a locomotive being brought out of retirement, the initial 15 year period shall begin on the day that the locomotive is placed in service or 365 calendar days after the first flue tube is installed in the locomotive, whichever comes first. This 1472 service day inspection shall include all annual, and 5th annual, inspection requirements, as well as any items required by the steam locomotive owner and/or operator or a government agency having jurisdiction. At this time, the locomotive owner and/or operator shall complete, update and verify the locomotive specification card (Form No. 4), to reflect the condition of the boiler at the time of this inspection. (See appendices A and B)

31. Flues to be removed.
(a) Inspection of the boiler interior.
During the 1472 service day inspection, the steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall remove all flues of steam locomotive boilers in service, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this Section, for the purpose of inspecting the entire interior of the boiler and its bracing. After removing the flues, the steam locomotive owner and/or operator shall enter the boiler to remove scale from the interior and thoroughly clean and inspect it.
(b) NDE testing.
If the boiler can be thoroughly cleaned and inspected without removing the superheater flues, and it can be shown through appropriate NDE testing methods that they are safe and suitable for service, their removal may not be required at this time. Their removal may be required, however, if a government inspector or the steam locomotive owner and/or operator, considers it necessary due to identifiable safety concerns.
32. Time and method of inspection.
(a) Time of inspection.
The entire boiler shall completely be inspected at the 1472 service day inspection. The jacket, lagging and any other components interfering with the provision of inspection access shall be removed at this time. Those portions of the boiler that are exposed and able to be inspected as required by the daily, 31service day, annual and fifth annual inspections shall be inspected at those times. The interior of the boiler also shall be inspected at each annual inspection, after the completion of any hydrostatic test above MAWP, and whenever a sufficient number of flues are removed to allow examination. The jacket, lagging and any other components shall also be removed to provide inspection access whenever requested by a government agency or when the steam locomotive owner and/or operator considers it necessary due to identifiable safety concerns.
(b) Method of inspection.
(i) Entire boiler.
During the 1472 service day inspection, the entire boiler shall be examined for cracks, pitting, grooving, or indications of overheating and for damage where mud has collected, or heavy scale formed. The edges of plates, all laps, seams, and points where cracks and defects are likely to develop, shall be thoroughly inspected. Rivets shall be inspected for corrosion and looseness.
(ii) Boilerinterior.
When inspecting the boiler interior, it must be seen that braces and stays are taut, that pins are properly secured in place, and that each is in condition to support its proportion of the load. Washout plugs shall be removed for access and visual inspection of the water side of the firebox sheets. Washout plug threads, sleeves and threaded openings shall be examined at this time.
(iii) Boiler exterior.
A thorough inspection shall be made of the entire exterior of the boiler while under hydrostatic pressure.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/15 18:05 by Finderskeepers.

Finderskeepers, what agency/rulemaking body is that from?

Arendwood:

I don't know anything about 2816's future.  However, you have posted some beautiful images of this magnificent locomotive.  Thanks for sharing.

　Panmeister and RuleG thank you for your kind words.

ctjacks Wrote:
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> As long as EHH is at CP, the 2816 won't turn a
> wheel.  It is too bad he is anti- just about
> anything that may create good PR.  CN could have
> used it in my area when they took over EJ&E.
>
> CN on this side of the border was no-steam since
> some of Bill Benson's mishaps with the 2102 in the
> late 1960s, including one trip where the engine
> seized up a main bearing and blocked the
> single-track mainline.  After that, the GTW HQ in
> Detroit was completely anti-steam, until it got
> dissolved into Montreal in the early 1990s.
>
> re: the 5- year rule for boiler re-builds in
> Canada:  if you know of some specific reference
> to Transport Canada for such a rule, I would like
> to see it.  Going back 20-30 years ago, Transport
> Canada had removed all steam-engine rules and
> codes from its standards.  Thus, if you ran on
> the national rail network inter-province you
> technically didn't need any inspection of your
> engine.  As an oddity, if you ran intra-province
> only you were subject to inspection at the
> province level.  (Note that this was exactly
> opposite of U.S. rules).  I presume since then
> Transport Canada has changed their rules - does
> anyone know of a reference to specifics?
>
> Chris.
Let's see what happens when Harrison retires which will be sometime in 2016 I heard. It will come fast

ctjacks Wrote:
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> Finderskeepers, what agency/rulemaking body is
> that from?

Directly from Transport Canada circular MC 3

Posted from iPhone

Did anyone notice the crew in my photo at Red Wing?

You know I did, Jim. I've fired for both of them. Two of the best there are.