Steam & Excursion > Engine Loudness, and subjectivity

From rom earlier post by Hotwater...

 "Coal
> burning steam locomotives are MUCH louder that oil
> burners!". That has stuck in my craw for some 40
> years!"

Couple of points: years ago, fans remarked that fan trip engine CB&Q 5629 ( or maybe the 5632?)  that the engine ( an oil burner?) was REALLY loud, especially directly overhead.  

Loudness, in the cab, is very muffled and subsumed by other cab noises.....with large coal burners, it is common that stoker jets ARE very noisy.... Also, I have heard video recordings ( along side, pacing footage...) of a Frisco excursion engine, with REALLY loud, sharp exhaust reports that are louder than any I have heard in my life.

Also, loco historian from Pennsylvania, George Hart, told me that feedwater heaters ( both 'open' heaters and closed [ heat-exchanger]  systems)  markedly attenuated the loudness of the exhaust reports.  That seems to be confirmed by the Frisco engine that appeared to have two injectors, and no feedwater system.  

So, I'll side with Hart, that feedwater heater equipped engines are more muffled than similar-sized engines fitted only with injectors

So, steam engine 'loudness' is VERY subjective, based on individual life experiences.  
In the 'old' days, being around when there were thousands of steamers, gives a better comparison to make such qualitative judgements.

As I have said many times, the exhaust sounds of steamers is largely dependent on the mass of the train being hauled.
Another factor to consider, is the volume of steam forced up the stack with the driver revolutions.  
The sound of the exhausts are influenced by the adjustment the length of the admission period of the steam distribution valves.

It is possible, with a lightly loaded engine, to almost balance the boiler pressures on both sides of the piston.  
Thus, trying to force greater drafting of the firebed of coal burners.....possibly on a boiler with lagging pressure.

"Loudness" is also materially affected by the relative open volume of the smoke box, proper.

Many factors affect loudness..... Engine loading, valve gear & throttle settings, feedwater equipped, or injector-only engines ---- all 
blend to alter personal loudness perceptions.  Remember that Harley motorcycle riders, really relish the noise as they 'gun' their engines, especially under bridges and overpasses,----- pour-in lots of fuel with the engine at low RPMs.  
But, the unloaded motorcycle-engine flywheel, quickly gets over-revved, ------ dangerously so, as well as overheating the exhaust pipes, and wasting lots of gas, running a very rich mixture...

I'm interested in relevant experiences, regarding engine loudness...

W.


 

Wes, don't forget the noise creaated by the stoker grinding that coal into the firebox too.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

Sound also depends on the type of locomotive - saturated or superheat.

​When we converted our 1888 Cooke 4-4-0 from coal to oil fire the change was quite noticeable (a saturated engine)

​With a coal fire the amount of draft is limited by the force required to lift the fire off the grates.  Too much draft velocity disrupts the fire bed.

​With an oil fire, a greater draft velocity is required to make the fire fill the fire box (we learned from experience).

​The exhaust with the oil fire was much sharper and more crisp than was the coal fire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/16 22:12 by px320.

One theory I've always had is that--generally speaking of large mainline locomotives-- the lower-boiler-pressured, larger-cylindered locomotives seem to be louder than the higher pressure, smaller-cylindered engines. The 300 psi 4-8-4's like 844, 4449 or 611 aren't quiet by any means, but just not quite as loud as say the Reading T-1's at 240 psi or the CB&Q engines at 250(?), or the extreme example being the Frisco 1522 at 210 psi. Any thoughts?

I believe that another item that will play into the volume as designed is the working pressure / piston diameter / exhaust nozzle diameter.

On the subject of feedwater heaters, the exhaust of SOU 4501 sounds more muffled since the latest rebuild which included installation of a feedwater heater.

-James

Getting into different locomotives in a comparative fashion, purely subjective of course, the two loudest locomotives I have heard are Frisco 1522 (#1) and Tennessee Valley 610 (#2).  Other loud engines I have heard are Black Hills Central's 7, 104 and 110, though they are probably not fair comparisons due to the heavy grades in that line.

More middle of the road, volume wise, I would rate 765 and 611; nice and sharp but not the sheer volume of the loudest.  L&N 152 and Kentucky Central #11 (when it was running) fit in this range.  I'd probably put 3985 in this range as well.

Toward the lower end of the spectrum I would put both 4501 and 630; both a little mushy (particularly 4501) and not all that loud.  Little River #110 is also one of the quieter locomotives I've heard, though her exhaust is considerably sharper.  Come to think of it, N&W 475 on the Strasburg and Southern 401 are a bit mushy and not that loud.

The all-time champ for wimpy exhaust in my experience is 844.  I'm sure that has a lot to do with the large twin stacks.

The quietest engine I ever spent time around was Crab Orchard & Egyptian 17, though it never had to be worked very hard when I was around.  What that engine would have sounded like with a heavy train is a question that will probably never be answered.  I barely ever heard any stack music from her.

One odd thing I noted about Little River 110 was that it had a slight metallic ring to its exhaust.  It reminded me of the Crown Metal 4-4-0s I saw at Busch Gardens when I was little.  I thought it odd at the time.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

With zero doubts or questions in my mind - Reading & Northern's #425 is the absolute loudest engine I've ever heard.  It sounds like a jet coming at you and past you when it is doing track speed.  I've never had to turn my head away so many times just to try to protect my own hearing than I do when the "Four-and-a-Quarter" is running and working hard.

Jim Lipnitz
Morrisville, PA
Big Jim Video Productions

Never seen her in person.  One of these days........

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

bigjim4life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With zero doubts or questions in my mind - Reading
> & Northern's #425 is the absolute loudest engine
> I've ever heard.  It sounds like a jet coming at
> you and past you when it is doing track speed. 

If it sounds like a jet with a steady roar at the stack, it's not hooked up right. The cutoff is too long, which would also partly explain the noise.

A steam locomotive should never sound like a jet even at 70+ mph. When the whistle stops blowing at the beginning of this clip, note the sound of the 765's exhaust. That sure ain't no jet! It's rapid-fire machine gun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs6j_ZEde4o

Rich Melvin
Columbus, OH
My Web Site

I was wondering when the subject of "cut-off" was going to come up. I must admit that the absolute loudest steam locomotive I've even been on, or around, was the Burlington's O5b #5632. Even though the Engineer had her hooked-up properly, as we accelerated, her exhaust was still the loudest I've ever heard, and I'm sorry to say that I never heard one of the Burlington's S4 class Hudsons. 

I well remember the PRR K4s class locomotives, out of South Amboy, NJ, and those GREAT Reading "Iron Horse Rambles" with the 2124 and some of the other T-1s, and they were pretty loud even hooked-up properly. However, nothing holds a candle to the Burlington 4-8-4s, in my opinion. 

Rich_Melvin Wrote
> A steam locomotive should never sound like a jet
> even at 70+ mph.

I would think there are exceptions under the right conditions.

3985 climbing Archer Hill with that stack train in 1990 comes to mind.  Santa Fe 3759 wide open and accelerating past 70 in that recording by Seymour Johnson is another.

I heard 1522 wide open and accelerating to track speed with a freight consist in 1991 and that was pretty much a roar.  Hooked up and maintaining a steady speed, she sounded considerably different.

765 is hooked up right and holding at a steady speed in that video.  If it were maxed out and still accelerating, I'm sure it would sound much more intense.  A greater volume of steam escaping the front end would surely make a noticeable difference from trackside.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/16 14:51 by MaryMcPherson.

Mary,

Are all your statements, above based on experience?

MaryMcPherson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 765 is hooked up right and holding at a steady
> speed in that video.  If it were maxed out and
> still accelerating, I'm sure it would sound much
> more intense.  A greater volume of steam escaping
> the front end would surely make a noticeable
> difference from trackside.

Mary, in that 765 video clip I posted above, the 765's throttle is on the roof. She is working wide open at 70 mph and still slowly accelerating. To use your words, it is, "...maxed out and still accelerating..."

And she sure doesn't sound like a jet.

Rich Melvin
Columbus, OH
My Web Site

Rich_Melvin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MaryMcPherson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 765 is hooked up right and holding at a steady
> > speed in that video.  If it were maxed out and
> > still accelerating, I'm sure it would sound
> much
> > more intense.  A greater volume of steam
> escaping
> > the front end would surely make a noticeable
> > difference from trackside.
>
> Mary, in that 765 video clip I posted above, the
> 765's throttle is on the roof. She is working wide
> open at 70 mph and still slowly accelerating. To
> use your words, it is, "...maxed out and still
> accelerating..."
>
> And she sure doesn't sound like a jet.

Thanks for the clarification!

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mary,
>
> Are all your statements, above based on
> experience?

Not as much as I would prefer.

It was a combination supposition and question.  Surely in 765's case is "surely not."  Should have had a question mark.

One doesn't learn by being right.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/16 15:50 by MaryMcPherson.

HotWater.....I agree with you completely concerning CB&Q 4-8-4 5632 being the loudest engine I have ever heard. I have been riding behing steam since 1958 and NO engine has even come close to being as loud as 5632, she was the all time champion.

I'm amazed at how loud R&N 425 is.  She really has a sharp bark. I also remember 5632 and she was a loud talker.
I kept telling people when we were restoring 1522 that they were in for a treat because I remembered how sharp Frisco's exhausts were.  1522 has two Chicago injectors, nothing whatsoever in the smokebox and was "loud enough to wake the cremated" according to Jim Boyd.  I've been running her upgrade through some cuts with people standing on top to take photos and have seen them drop their cameras and cover their ears.  Running her up Iron Hill near St. Clair, MO which is the ruling grade WB out of St. Louis to Newburg with full tonnage and went through a cut and it blocked my ears like a gunshot would.
I've stood at crossings when she was working full out and you couldn't hear the whistle clearly and while you could see the bell swinging, the exhaust drowned out the sound.
My Dad, whose Frisco engine service career dated back to 1916 loved the 1500s.  I can remember him telling me how the MoPaC steam engines always sounded like they were working water.  One time we were firing 1522 up for a trip the next day and were down at Union Station. An old guy came up and was looking her over and I invited him up into the cab.  We talked quite a while and I found out he was long retired from the MP.  He said "I always loved to hear a Frisco engine, ours always sounded like they were working water".  I got a good laugh out of that.
Wife and I were on vacation in CO back in the '80s and stopped at the Georgetown Loop.and the engineer on the Shay saw my 1522 belt buckle and invited me up in the cab.  We talked and he turned out to be a retired guy from Denison, TX on the SP.  They leased several of the 1500s late in the game .  He said when one of them started out with a train, the whole town knew it.
I always found that if your engine sounds like a jet plane, you don't have her hooked up right.  I've run 60-70 MPH and found what I called her "G" spot and the engine really smooths out and the exhaust has a nice rhythm to it, not a roar.  One of our engineers always had her roaring and coming out of Springfield east, he invited me to sit down for some 60MPH running.  When I sat down, I hooked her up 3-4 notches and shut the throttle about a third and the difference was amazing.   Nice exhaust and accelerating.  It boils down to many factors, grade, tonnage, seat of the pants and ears.

I have been around three loud oil burning steam locomotives that were loud enough to wake the dead, one of those I used to run and fire.  

Sierra #28 and California Western #45 are two of the loudest barking oil burners I have personally heard.  Both of those beautiful Baldwin's are have a wonderful crisp exhuast that is distinct at any speed or throttle setting.  I have seen both of these two working hard enough the ringing off the bell was not audible and the whistle could barely be heard.

Robert Dollar #3 has a loud exhaust that turns into a tremendous roar above 15mph when working above 3/4 throttle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/16 20:27 by Lurch.

Nothing beats Sierra 34..........

Loudest 88 tons of engine out there.....

When she was up against it, her sharp, square, loud exhaust had a metallic ring to it.

I'm told when she would doublehead behind the 28,  most of the time the engineer on 28 could not hear the engine he was running because 34 was drowning everyone else out.

Awesome.