Railroaders' Nostalgia > More on signal location and their indications

MDO started a thread about signals and their indications. Instead of adding to what he talked about, I decided to start this one instead.

The red over green to enter a controlled siding was changed because that indication told the engineer that the next signal was something other than "stop" indication, which in about 99 times out of 100 is not the case.

To me, entering a controlled siding on a red over yellow makes sense because you know that 99 times out of 100 you will have a red at the other end of the siding.

The only time that I entered a controlled siding, and this was after they changed the rule from red over green to red over yellow to enter a siding, was on METROLINK at the north end of the siding at Balboa with a red over green indication. There were MofW crews working on the main track so we had to enter the siding at the north end on a red over green and saw that the signal at the south end of the siding was also green. That was the first time I saw the red over green indication to enter a siding since the rule was changed.

There is one place on the Tehachapi's where I wish the signal department could change the signal set up. And that is at Bealville in the siding for northbound and southbound trains. The controlled siding at Bealville is about 13,000 feet long with a crossover roughly in the middle controlled by opposing "A" signals within CTC limits. This 13,000 foot siding was created many years ago when the SP connected the sidings at Bealville and Allard.

If I;m going south and I enter the siding at the north end of Bealville I get a red over yellow. That's the way it should be. But the problem I have is that if the dispatcher has me lined all the way out the other end, wouldn't you think that I should have a green at the crossover to proceed to the south end of the siding? Nope. The least restrictive indication that signal can give is a yellow. For what I think are obvious reasons the signal on the main is not like this.

Now if the track approaching the crossover were straight track, I'd have no problem with the signal because you would probably be able to see the signal way in advance so you could control the speed according to the signal indication at the crossover. But the signal is right at the end of about a 9 or 10 degree sweeping curve to the left so you have to get your speed down to about 6 or 8 miles per hour so in case the signal at the crossover is red, you still have plenty of time to stop. Oh, did I tell you that the distance from where you can see the signal to the signal itself is only about 300 feet or so. Not much room to stop your train if the signal is red so that's why you need to have your speed way down prepared to stop. If I were to get a red over green at the north end when I entered the siding, I'd know that the signal at the crossover will display an other than "stop" indication.

As I'm sure most people know on this board, every time you change the speed of a train in heavy grade territory, you take a chance on breaking the train in two regardless of whether you are in power or dynamic. That is because you are changing the slack and/or forces in the train if you have a helper or, you change the forces on the knuckle between the rear unit and the first car which happens every time the engineer on the head end changes throttle position. This is where the L over V factor comes into play. The L over V factor represents lateral forces and the V represents the vertical forces. If the lateral forces exceed the vertical forces, you'll have a derailment.

If there is a signal maintainer on this board, and I know of at least two, maybe you can give me a logical (with logical being the key word here) explanation why the signal in the siding at the crossover at Bealville can display only a red or a yellow and never a green.

JDE

WP and DRGW had red over yellow for meets

Again, I would love to find out the thinking of the flashing red at Cuesta.

As far as signals were concerned, we would complain about improper placement and stuff but they never changed anything. Until we had Rollin Bredenberg (RDB) as a Superintendent on the Western Division. I mentioned something to him at a safety dinner at the Motel Inn in SLO and he said , "Drop me a line". I figured it would go into the round file but I couldn't beleive it when the signal gangs came out and fixed what was needed between SLO and Margarita a week later. He was a man of his word and I enjoyed crossing his path a few times years later.

Nudge

I like the upper management guys that will listen to the troops. And like you said, if we don't tell them, then it probably won't get done like the thing you wrote about a while back on the placement of a scanner/dragging equipment detector.

JDE

>WP and DRGW had red over yellow for meets

On the WP, the sidings, at least the ones between Haggin and Binney Jct. are non-signaled territory. This means all you get to enter one, no matter for what reason, meets or anything else, you get a red over lunar. As of a couple of years ago, the UP hadn't changed this. Don't know about no D&RGW.

>Again, I would love to find out the thinking of the flashing red at Cuesta.

It was probably something like the flashing lunar at Mott (and the one which used to be at W/E Small): advance warning of the signal indication around the corner -- both locations are also on rather steep grades with blind curves. It's my opinion that these sorts of things were put in during those days of more divisional independence than has been current for the last 20-30 years. With all the inter-divisional runs which came about during the 1970s, these things became too confusing for engineers from other divisions. Other examples are the "P signals" of the Sac Div: the "Fly Swatter" approaching Antelope from Elvas and the one west of West Reno, both for EB trains. You couldn't pass either unless the P was illuminated, and it wasn't tied in with the signal indication until something like the early to mid-1980s. The other type of P signal, the ones with the triangular plates, were for protective devices like slide fences, etc. Unlimited Parking, in all its infinite wisdom and sagacity, took all these down because they "weren't a UP standard". Several years later one fine afternoon, an over height truck tripped the one on the underpass at Davis. No one knew what had happened. It tied up the line for about 2 hours, along with several Capitols, before someone in the signal department figured it out, came to Davis, and inspected the bridge.

There was another of these "repeater signals" coming W/B off the Mulford line at Elmhurst, although all it had was a number plate and repeated the indications of the interlocking signal about 500' further around the curve. The interlocking signal didn't come into view until you were across an xing and within about 2000' of the signal, and if you were going to be held, you didn't want to block the crossing nor let the slack out of your train or the locals would start pulling pins.

The flashing lunar at Mott and Small were put in when Bob Miller was the RFE in the 80s. He also got the signals "G" plated going to K Falls and on the Siskiyou Line. The signals stayed but when they changed the rule book there were not any provisions for a grade signal. So they went away and even after they corrected the mistake a few years later, they never put them back.


Nudge

>He also got the signals "G" plated going to K Falls and on the Siskiyou Line. The signals stayed but when they changed the rule book there were not any provisions for a grade signal. So they went away and even after they corrected the mistake a few years later, they never put them back

If memory serves, these were the round yellow plates with the black G on them. ISTR that they were put back because they were square, gray, with a puny G on them. It's been a while, so I don't know whether they're still there or not. The G signals on the Mountain never came back.

I seem to recall, if memory serves me (which is questionable), that the Santa Fe used to have a G plate on some intermediates (displaying a number plate) which allowed a train encountering a red there to proceed at restricted speed. But later I recall the G plate being dropped and replaced with a flashing red at an intermediate (with number plate) to mean the same thing, i.e. proceed at restricted speed. A solid red at an intermediate was, and still is, a stop and proceed. Yes? No?

On the SP if there was a "G" on the signal, you didn't have to stop, just go at restricted speed.

Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
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> On the SP if there was a "G" on the signal, you
> didn't have to stop, just go at restricted speed.
>
> Nudge


G (Grade) signals were usually on grades... for example west or now north out of Mojave had several G plates because of not only the grade in excess of 2 percent but also the length of the blocks

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I seem to recall, if memory serves me (which is
> questionable), that the Santa Fe used to have a G
> plate on some intermediates (displaying a number
> plate) which allowed a train encountering a red
> there to proceed at restricted speed. But later I
> recall the G plate being dropped and replaced with
> a flashing red at an intermediate (with number
> plate) to mean the same thing, i.e. proceed at
> restricted speed. A solid red at an intermediate
> was, and still is, a stop and proceed. Yes? No?

Does the new signals on the BNSF triple track up Cajon Pass have the "G" plates on the uphill signals? I know they did when they were first installed.

Steamjocky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MDO started a thread about signals and their
> indications. Instead of adding to what he talked
> about, I decided to start this one instead.
>
> The red over green to enter a controlled siding
> was changed because that indication told the
> engineer that the next signal was something other
> than "stop" indication, which in about 99 times
> out of 100 is not the case.
>
> To me, entering a controlled siding on a red over
> yellow makes sense because you know that 99 times
> out of 100 you will have a red at the other end of
> the siding.
>
> The only time that I entered a controlled siding,
> and this was after they changed the rule from red
> over green to red over yellow to enter a siding,
> was on METROLINK at the north end of the siding at
> Balboa with a red over green indication. There
> were MofW crews working on the main track so we
> had to enter the siding at the north end on a red
> over green and saw that the signal at the south
> end of the siding was also green. That was the
> first time I saw the red over green indication to
> enter a siding since the rule was changed.
>
> There is one place on the Tehachapi's where I wish
> the signal department could change the signal set
> up. And that is at Bealville in the siding for
> northbound and southbound trains. The controlled
> siding at Bealville is about 13,000 feet long with
> a crossover roughly in the middle controlled by
> opposing "A" signals within CTC limits. This
> 13,000 foot siding was created many years ago when
> the SP connected the sidings at Bealville and
> Allard.
>
> If I;m going south and I enter the siding at the
> north end of Bealville I get a red over yellow.
> That's the way it should be. But the problem I
> have is that if the dispatcher has me lined all
> the way out the other end, wouldn't you think that
> I should have a green at the crossover to proceed
> to the south end of the siding? Nope. The least
> restrictive indication that signal can give is a
> yellow. For what I think are obvious reasons the
> signal on the main is not like this.
>
> Now if the track approaching the crossover were
> straight track, I'd have no problem with the
> signal because you would probably be able to see
> the signal way in advance so you could control the
> speed according to the signal indication at the
> crossover. But the signal is right at the end of
> about a 9 or 10 degree sweeping curve to the left
> so you have to get your speed down to about 6 or 8
> miles per hour so in case the signal at the
> crossover is red, you still have plenty of time to
> stop. Oh, did I tell you that the distance from
> where you can see the signal to the signal itself
> is only about 300 feet or so. Not much room to
> stop your train if the signal is red so that's why
> you need to have your speed way down prepared to
> stop. If I were to get a red over green at the
> north end when I entered the siding, I'd know that
> the signal at the crossover will display an other
> than "stop" indication.
>
> As I'm sure most people know on this board, every
> time you change the speed of a train in heavy
> grade territory, you take a chance on breaking the
> train in two regardless of whether you are in
> power or dynamic. That is because you are
> changing the slack and/or forces in the train if
> you have a helper or, you change the forces on the
> knuckle between the rear unit and the first car
> which happens every time the engineer on the head
> end changes throttle position. This is where the
> L over V factor comes into play. The L over V
> factor represents lateral forces and the V
> represents the vertical forces. If the lateral
> forces exceed the vertical forces, you'll have a
> derailment.
>
> If there is a signal maintainer on this board, and
> I know of at least two, maybe you can give me a
> logical (with logical being the key word here)
> explanation why the signal in the siding at the
> crossover at Bealville can display only a red or a
> yellow and never a green.
>
> JDE

JDE,

I have a question for you.. Did you have a flashing yellow aspect on the SP over the Tehachapi's??? Couldn't you get a Red over Flashing yellow at North Bealville, then a high yellow at the crossover, then either stop or go out on a yellow on the other end??


SP8100

SP8100 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question for you.. Did you have a
> flashing yellow aspect on the SP over the
> Tehachapi's???

We had that indication on the mountain between Tehachapi and Caliente at only one location. That was the approach signal to Marcel for northward trains only.

If you were on a northbound approaching Marcel to make a meet with a southbound and you were going to hold the main track, you would get a green out of Cable, the next ABS signal would be green (between tunnels 16 and 17 I think it was), then a flashing on the approach to Marcel, a yellow at the south end of Marcel and a red at the north end.

This flashing yellow was put in at the request of the crews because there was at least one instance where the northbound train had a green at the south end of Marcel, they came around the corner at the north end and had a red signal. That was Randy Black and Charlie McMahon. They ended up getting by the signal and into the power switch which was lined for the siding. They were off for about 6 months or so.

Same exact thing happened to me with the exception that I had a much smaller and lighter train and by the time I was about halfway between switches, I see a southbound Santa Fe coming around the curve in to the siding. Fortunately I was able to stop in plenty of time.



Couldn't you get a Red over
> Flashing yellow at North Bealville, then a high
> yellow at the crossover, then either stop or go
> out on a yellow on the other end??

No, though that would be nice if we could. The signal system is not set up that way because of the distance between signals (which are short) and the speed of the trains (which, at the time, was a max of 25 mph).

Out on the desert south of Mojave where the speeds are much higher and the signals are farther apart every signal (so I was told) is equipped to display a flashing yellow. That flashing yellow is a great indication as far as I'm concerned.

JDE

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the SP if there was a "G" on the signal, you
> didn't have to stop, just go at restricted speed.
>
> Nudge

Donner had them too

I think the SP had them on just about any mountain district, But you never saw a G plated signal for a train on a descending grade, only ascending.

JDE

Up Hill Slow, Down Hill Fast, Tonnage First and Safety Last. is I think it went. No, "G" signals were for the uphill drags.


Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Up Hill Slow, Down Hill Fast, Tonnage First and
> Safety Last. is I think it went. No, "G" signals
> were for the uphill drags.
>
>
> Nudge

Reversed the first two... Slow uphill, fast downhill

"Up Hill Slow, Down Hill Fast, Tonnage First and Safety Last."

This is the way I always heard it.

Isn't that what I said?

JDE

It was written in a SP phone booth.. Slow Uphill, Fast downhill, tonnage first, safety last