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Eastern Railroad Discussion > CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23


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Date: 05/22/23 13:38
CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: florida581

CSX hump counts for week of 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
(in order from the busiest)

•Rice Yard  Waycross, GA
5/14 - 2,921
5/15 - 2,836
5/16 - 2,562
5/17 - 2,742
5/18 - 2,639
5/19 - 2,917
5/20 - 2,951
19,568 total / 2,795 average 

•Radnor Yard  Nashville, TN
5/14 - 1,928
5/15 - 1,516
5/16 - 1,851 
5/17 - 1,832
5/18 - 1,955
5/19 - 1,778
5/20 - 1,888
12,748 total / 1,821 average 

•Selkirk Yard  Selkirk, NY 
5/14 - 1,999
5/15 - 1,517
5/16 - 1,666
5/17 - 1,702
5/18 - 2,120
5/19 - 1,759
5/20 - 1,934
12,697 total / 1,814 average  

•Queensgate Yard  Cincinnati, OH 
5/14 - 1,918
5/15 - 1,857
5/16 - 2,041
5/17 - 1,892
5/18 - 1,851
5/19 - 1,596
5/20 - 1,511
12,666 total / 1,809 average 

•Avon Yard  Avon, IN 
5/14 - 1,691
5/15 - 1,448
5/16 - 1,549
5/17 - 1,362
5/18 - 1,468
5/19 - 1,437
5/20 - 1,557
10,512 total / 1,502 average

Andrew



Date: 05/22/23 14:04
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: knoxcola

Appreciate the info very much Andrew.  I watch the Waycross Virtual Railfan cam and I've often wondered how many cars are humped everyday.  Your info answered my question.

When the NS hump in Knoxville was operational I used to watch hump operations there on occasions before restrictions were put into place.  Hump operations are amazing to see.  I always wish the Waycross hump occasions could be viewed.

Mike Huie



Date: 05/22/23 14:15
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: ts1457

florida581 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CSX hump counts for week of 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
> (in order from the busiest)
....
> Andrew

Thanks Andrew, 

Assuming that CSX is giving us good counts, those numbers are pretty interesting. 

The lowest average is about 1500 (barely). I am not a fan of PSR, but I do think some excess hump yard capacity was justifiably eliminated.



Date: 05/22/23 15:15
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: florida581

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The lowest average is about 1500 (barely). I am
> not a fan of PSR, but I do think some excess hump
> yard capacity was justifiably eliminated.

And that 1,502 count is referring to Avon.  If you recall, EHH shut that hump down and transferred most classification duties to Hawthorne Yard across town.  The whole region, from Cincinnati, Nashville, St Louis, Chicago, and Toledo quickly became a quagmire.  It was one of the few humps EHH reactivated after closing.  Sure, Avon's count is the fewest amongst its brothers, but it definitely keeps the straw from breaking the camel's back.

Andrew



Date: 05/22/23 16:52
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: JGFuller

harrison closed Radnor also. Thankfully that fool died before he could inflict further damage on CSX.



Date: 05/22/23 17:25
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: ironmtn

> ts1457 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> And that 1,502 count is referring to Avon.  If
> you recall, EHH shut that hump down and
> transferred most classification duties to
> Hawthorne Yard across town.  The whole region,
> from Cincinnati, Nashville, St Louis, Chicago, and
> Toledo quickly became a quagmire.  It was one of
> the few humps EHH reactivated after closing.
>  Sure, Avon's count is the fewest amongst its
> brothers, but it definitely keeps the straw from
> breaking the camel's back.
>
> Andrew

And it's my understanding from conversations with PC and Conrail employees on the St. Louis Line in the past that it's been that way for many years. The car counts may not have been as high as some other yards, but they included a lot of high-value, time-sensitive traffic.

Particularly automotive traffic for St. Louis, where in the past there were four assembly plants (two Chrysler, one Ford, one GM). And back when the GM facility was in the old plant on St. Louis' north side at Natural Bridge Ave. and Union Blvd., and before the newer Wentzville, Mo. plant started operating, there were three lines in operation at the old plant: Chevrolet car, Chevy - GMC truck, and Corvette. That made for six separate assembly lines in the area, all with their own parts supply needs, much of it by rail.

Avon long did important work keeping that critical traffic flowing.

There's much less such traffic today, with only GM Wentzville still operating, and served by NS (ex-Wabash), that has its own routes into and out of St. Louis from component manufacturing centers. But Avon still has its role in keeping a diverse Midwestern industrial traffic base, and multiple routes, moving smoothly.

MC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/23 17:30 by ironmtn.



Date: 05/23/23 07:34
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: alco244

today the numbers posted may not seam impressive, an opinion of harrison was to tear them out and flat switch, even the lowest count is better than 1 car per minute, take away idle time,waiting for inbound trains waiting for cars to be pulled, doubled over building outbound trains, carmen working the tracks, etc. it approaches 2 cars per minute, alot more productive than flat switching, even counting extreme weather, try flat switching on a stormy night, 30F, 30 mph wind from the north, sleet coming down, i have, not that a hump doesn't have maintenance needs, harrison really didn't have any real answers, only short term money schemes.



Date: 05/23/23 09:39
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: Drknow

In the grand scheme EHH (PBUH) was just a disciple of senior Ponzi.

He and his cult are just delusional idiots who are just Wall Street minions. They will sell their souls for a few pieces of silver.

Regards

Posted from iPhone



Date: 05/23/23 16:26
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: scraphauler

Drknow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He and his cult are just delusional idiots who are
> just Wall Street minions. They will sell their
> souls for a few pieces of silver.
>
> Regards
>
> Posted from iPhone

No, they will sell YOUR soul. They have no souls of their own to sell.



Date: 05/23/23 20:58
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: illini73

Drknow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> He and his cult are just delusional idiots who are just Wall Street minions. They will sell their souls for a few pieces of silver.

It was remarked by a rail industry financial observer (David Nahass of Railway Age) in 2020 that Harrison's impact on railroad CEOs was such that  " . . .  the failure to align with the ideology of PSR was the equivalent of handing in one’s resignation."  It's interesting that he calls PSR an "ideology" rather than a strategy.



Date: 05/24/23 07:25
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: IC1038west

Avon was the ex-Frisco's carman oilers' crowning dis-achievement. The way he handled the whole CSX Indianapolis terminal revisions showed how little he actually knew about the railroad he was destroying.

He left a lot of scar tissue behind him during his appetite for destruction self enhancement journey.



Date: 05/24/23 07:34
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: Lackawanna484

illini73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Drknow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > He and his cult are just delusional idiots who
> are just Wall Street minions. They will sell
> their souls for a few pieces of silver.
>
> It was remarked by a rail industry financial
> observer (David Nahass of Railway Age) in 2020
> that Harrison's impact on railroad CEOs was such
> that  " . . .  the failure to align with the
> ideology of PSR was the equivalent of handing in
> one’s resignation."  It's interesting that he
> calls PSR an "ideology" rather than a strategy.

One of the significant aspects of PSR was its focus on the Operating Ratio and Earnings Per Share as its targets.  Not things like train velocity, revenue per ton mile, etc. By focusing on the financial outcomes, rather than the operating means to get there, you can chop, chop, chop. Until there is no more to chop.



Date: 05/24/23 07:41
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: ts1457

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of the significant aspects of PSR was its
> focus on the Operating Ratio and Earnings Per
> Share as its targets.  Not things like train
> velocity, revenue per ton mile, etc. By focusing
> on the financial outcomes, rather than the
> operating means to get there, you can chop, chop,
> chop. Until there is no more to chop.

Historically, railroads have been great sub-optimizers.



Date: 05/24/23 08:32
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: mp208

Conway (Pittsburg) productivity. When I was at Conway in the early 1970"s, GM Don Swanson set a goal of 1000 cars over the west hump and 800 cars over the east hump PER 8 HR TRICK. He demanded we take off the trim assignments and have the retarder operators "trim" with loads. Carnage....

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/23 08:54 by mp208.



Date: 05/24/23 08:52
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: ts1457

mp208 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Conway (Pittsburg) productivity. When I was at
> Conway in the early 1970"s, GM Don Swanson set a
> goal of 1000 cars over the west hump and 800 cars
> over the east hump PER 8 HR TRICK. He demanded the
> retarder operators "trim" with loads. Carnage....

During that time period, N&W Bellevue was also a yard doing that. One of the car retarder operators was nick-named "Boomer". Conversation from the yardmaster to the CRO would go like "Boomer, how about brushing that car in 42", after which he controlled the next car into the track manually. If the yardmaster had said, "Boomer, knock the hell out of that car in 42", that would have been more accurate. For years, Bellevue was doing a quarter million a month in damage to equipment and lading which was a lot of money back then. The shop tracks were chock-a-block full of damaged cars, many with contents hanging out. Headquarters seemed to be powerless to do any ting about it, because Bellevue managers claimed that's what they had to do to stay alive. Bellevue had a well-deserved reputation of being a "killer hump".



Date: 05/24/23 08:59
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: Typhoon

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> illini73 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Drknow Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > He and his cult are just delusional idiots
> who
> > are just Wall Street minions. They will sell
> > their souls for a few pieces of silver.
> >
> > It was remarked by a rail industry financial
> > observer (David Nahass of Railway Age) in 2020
> > that Harrison's impact on railroad CEOs was
> such
> > that  " . . .  the failure to align with the
> > ideology of PSR was the equivalent of handing
> in
> > one’s resignation."  It's interesting that
> he
> > calls PSR an "ideology" rather than a strategy.
>
> One of the significant aspects of PSR was its
> focus on the Operating Ratio and Earnings Per
> Share as its targets.  Not things like train
> velocity, 

Train velocity was a HUGE aspect of Hunters time at CSX.  It was the first thing mentioned on every conference call that I was ever on.



Date: 05/24/23 09:34
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: Lackawanna484

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > illini73 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Drknow Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > > He and his cult are just delusional idiots
> > who
> > > are just Wall Street minions. They will sell
> > > their souls for a few pieces of silver.
> > >
> > > It was remarked by a rail industry financial
> > > observer (David Nahass of Railway Age) in
> 2020
> > > that Harrison's impact on railroad CEOs was
> > such
> > > that  " . . .  the failure to align with
> the
> > > ideology of PSR was the equivalent of handing
> > in
> > > one’s resignation."  It's interesting that
> > he
> > > calls PSR an "ideology" rather than a
> strategy.
> >
> > One of the significant aspects of PSR was its
> > focus on the Operating Ratio and Earnings Per
> > Share as its targets.  Not things like train
> > velocity, 
>
> Train velocity was a HUGE aspect of Hunters time
> at CSX.  It was the first thing mentioned on
> every conference call that I was ever on.

Understood.  But did velocity rise or fall?  End to end elapsed time  service definitely rose.

Cutting back the assignment of locomotives, increasing the tonnage relative to horsepower (1 x 1 x 0) certinly didn't help velocity.  That's a good example of saying one thing (velocity is important) while simultaneously reducing the means to achieve it.  That plays well on Wall Street.  Not so well with the customers.



Date: 05/24/23 09:40
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: wyeth

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> florida581 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CSX hump counts for week of 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
> > (in order from the busiest)
> ....
> > Andrew
>
> Thanks Andrew, 
>
> Assuming that CSX is giving us good counts, those
> numbers are pretty interesting. 
>
> The lowest average is about 1500 (barely). I am
> not a fan of PSR, but I do think some excess hump
> yard capacity was justifiably eliminated.

The problem here is that the focus was (is) on maximizing the number of cars humped to justify the extra expense of operating a hump yard.  What was ignored is the side effects of this philosophy in that, when yards are operated up toward their maximum capacity, congestion becomes an everyday thing and car processing and transit times increase dramatically.  Then this massively inflates another often touted (and VERY REAL) problems of rail yards, places where cars get delayed excessively.  Yards are not the only place this phenomenon happens, it is common place on the main lines when capacity is "maximized"; in reality, congestion and delays are the things that are "maximized".

The problem that often occurs with hump yards (or any other yard), is the railroads' tendency for "if a train passes through a yard, we must switch it!".  I think this was a major problem in the even recent past on the NS and CSX; they both had many hump yards, but they weren't utilized in the operating scheme very well.  They are the most efficient way to process carload traffic, but the traffic they process should be built into trains that will bypass downstream yards and get cars to their destinations faster and more reliably.  Many cars just went from yard - to yard - to yard, inflating operating costs per car, delaying the car, causing huge transit times and horrible transit reliability for the customers. 

BTW, under PSR, these problems have become much worse than better (example:  cars waiting longer to "maximize" the huge train lengths that are now the industry standards).



Date: 05/24/23 10:13
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: Lackawanna484

But, the large train lengths are necessary because the railroads have eroded their head counts.  By laying off people and bragging about it to Wall Street, resiliency of crews has been seriously injured. That was always a feature of the earnings calls that I heard.

If a maximum 7500 foot train length was imposed on the class 1 lines, they would collapse on the spot. They barely have the people to move the 12,000 footers they seem to prefer.



Date: 05/24/23 10:43
Re: CSX hump yard productivity 5/14/23 - 5/20/23
Author: JGFuller

Hump counts are of great interest to Operating types, as is Velocity, and Terminal Dwell. But the customer is only concerned with one index: Trip Plan compliance. Did the shipment arrive as planned?



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