Model Railroading > The final word on "Southern Pacific" red loco lettering

This has been a somewhat controversial subject, due to the lack of hard facts. Richard Percy, on his site, has a couple of paragraphs addressing this issue which are partially correct. I have some information to share which confirms and more accurately describes what happened. Maybe some here have already come to the specific conclusions below, but I don't recall seeing it posted here.

Prior to making a close, personal examination, I was "buying" the theory that Scotchlite lettering peeled off exposing primer underneath. It really bothered me though, that this "primer" appeared to be identical to the Scarlet final coat.

About two years ago, I had the opportunity to inspect and photograph UPY1137, ex-SP2553, an SW1500 at West Colton. The unit was on the ready tracks at the time, but was soon to become a member of the deadline another mile East where it sits today.

Close examination, including scratching off paint down to bare metal in several locations provided the following evidence:

The unit was initially covered in a coat of yellow primer (A slightly "dark" yellow... like something between UP yellow and Catarpillar yellow). Some here are, no doubt, familiar with this color of primer. The entire unit (frame/pilots/hood/cab) was then painted a good thick coat or two of SP Scarlet. Following this, the Scotchlite lettering was applied. As per common painting practice, the areas to remain Scarlet were also masked off, and the remainder painted Gray. Besides removing paper and tape covering the Scarlet ends and frame sides, each Scotchlite stick-on letter/number had it's own top layer of peel-off mask, at this point, covered with Gray. The mask comes off to reveal the white reflective character underneath.

As seen on 1137/2553, the Scotchlite stickers eventually disintegrated as a result of the material cracking into hundreds of tiny pieces, which then began to separate and fall off. A fillet (ridge) of Gray paint could still be clearly seen and felt around the outline of the Scarlet areas and existing Scotchlite from build up against the mask that had been there.

The only thing that remains unanswered for me, is why the ENTIRE unit was painted scarlet first, especially when red-pigmented paints generally cost more than others (Certainly more than the primer... I might have expected to see this scenario played out with yellow primer showing under the letters... although this wouldn't have been as "weather tight" and long-lasting.).

Here are the photos:

1) Overall view
2) Front radiator area. Note that, around the plate covering the hole for the missing red Gyralite, the yellow primer can be seen (In the shape of the Gyralite.).
3) Close up of lettering. Note that the "S" appears to have been applied upside down (They are not symmetrical, top to bottom.).

Mark

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Two more close ups of lettering (Note on first one that the yellow primer can be seen under the chipped Scarlet frame paint, as well.).

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while what you have writen sounds good [ to my mind anyhow ] i thought the sp used a tan colored primer on there engins.

By the way... I have also personally inspected examples of the "rusty" lettering (as opposed to "red"). The lettering area was first painted with a thin coat of white ("Lettering Gray", actually) (presumably over a primer), plain (not Scotchlite) letter masks applied, then the gray coat, letter masks removed. The white and prime began to show rust underneath long before the surrounding gray.

Mark

highhood Wrote:
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> while what you have writen sounds good [ to my
> mind anyhow ] i thought the sp used a tan colored
> primer on there engins.

That was much later.

Mark

I have always sort of thought the red in the letters was the color of the adhesive used to bind the reflective material to the locomotive paint.

Nope... It's pure SP Scarlet.

Mark

The Lehigh Valley did something similar with their cornell red with black pin stripes. The entire engine was painted black, then the pin stripes were masked off and the cornell red was applied over the exposed black paint.

Chessie did the same thing. They painted the engine blue, then masked off the
Chessie System lettering and painted the yellow and vermillion.

Is this original EMD paint on this SW1500 or a Espee repaint? Joe

mwbridgwater Wrote:
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> The only thing that remains unanswered for me, is
> why the ENTIRE unit was painted scarlet first,
> especially when red-pigmented paints generally
> cost more than others (Certainly more than the
> primer... I might have expected to see this
> scenario played out with yellow primer showing
> under the letters... although this wouldn't have
> been as "weather tight" and long-lasting.).
>
>

You may have answered your own question by referring to what was the more "weather tight". Another consideration might be the ability of the scarlet to cover the grey properly. If it takes more coats of scarlet to cover the grey, it would make sense to paint the scarlet first. I'm betting the paint shop people understood which was the most economical and effective way to do it. The grey IS a "darker" color and usually, that is applied last. I always wondered why the red letters appeared though, thanks for clearing up that oddity!

> I have always sort of thought the red in the
> letters was the color of the adhesive used to bind
> the reflective material to the locomotive paint.

Scotchlite® adhesive is clear. From the back, an unadhered letter with the liner removed looks like frosted silver. Ordinary vinyl has the same clear adhesive that Scotchlite® uses, so it can be applied on transparent substrates from the inside in other applications. Without the protection of the vinyl itself, the adhesive won't last very long.

ESPEE5318 Wrote:
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> Is this original EMD paint on this SW1500 or a
> Espee repaint? Joe

I wondered the same thing, Joe. As I recall (from each area where I removed the paint), there seemed to be bare steel, then one layer each of primer, then scarlet, then gray, but the scarlet ends and frame sides had been painted a second time with a slightly different shade of scarlet. This would lead me to believe that it was the original EMD job with just the scarlet redone by SP later on (Unless the entire unit was stripped by SP at some point and repainted from scratch, but that's probably not likely.).

Mark

Mark,


I believe it to be original paint also because I see what looks like a ACI label between the two sets of louvers. ACI labels started in 1967 and when out of use in 1977ish......very very unlikely that this loco was repainted between being built (in 1970? guess) and 1977....Joe

Good point, Joe. I just checked espee.railfan.net for an older photo of this unit with no luck, but here's one from the same order, five units later (SP2558) and it clearly has the ACI label in that same position:

http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/sw1500_photos/2558_sp-sw1500-brian_paul_ehni.jpg

Mark

stivmac Wrote:
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> If it takes
> more coats of scarlet to cover the grey, it would
> make sense to paint the scarlet first.

It would make sense to paint the scarlet first, regardless. In any painting job, the color covering the smallest area is painted first, because these smaller areas are more easily completely masked to protect them from spraying the second (larger area) color. What I would have expected in this case, though (and what would typically be done), is that only the areas requiring scarlet be painted such, plus a little beyond into the "gray area" only to insure complete coverage at the color separation point. The only reason I can think of for first painting the entire unit scarlet is simply for durability (Two coats of paint, at least where the gray is. Maybe the scarlet areas, only, were given a second coat of scarlet for a two coat thickness there, as well.).

Mark

I do not think we have "The final word" on this subject, think about what you are proclaiming. Painting the ENTIRE unit with one or two coats of scarlet before painting the gray does not make sense, and if it don't make sense it probably isn’t true. Here is my point, scarlet is a highly pigmented base paint (reds and yellows are the highest) so they cost much more then other paints. Try going to an automotive paint store and price red versus white paint, red costs much more. The engine already has primer on is so why would they take the time and money to paint the entire engine with paint they would just cover up?
Southern Pacific was a frugal railroad and I don't they would have wasted the resources. Pose your idea to the Southern Pacific historical society and see what they think, you may fine the worker that painted them long ago.
Ed

Mark brings up this problem of red being more expensive in his original post. It is indeed a poser. I'm wondering if perhaps two primer coats were used, the yellow, the a red, one perhaps as a rust preventative, the other as a color base. Mark DOES say that the bloody nose parts, etc. seemed to have TWO coats, one a slightly different color. This might indicate that the first was really a second primer coat, and then the grey was sprayed, then masking done for the noses, etc. then the real scarlet applied. Wouldn't these units have been painted at EMD to SP specs? In this case, SP frugality may have not been as much of an issue.

stivmac Wrote:
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> Mark brings up this problem of red being more
> expensive in his original post. It is indeed a
> poser. I'm wondering if perhaps two primer coats
> were used, the yellow, the a red, one perhaps as a
> rust preventative, the other as a color base. Mark
> DOES say that the bloody nose parts, etc. seemed
> to have TWO coats, one a slightly different color.
> This might indicate that the first was really a
> second primer coat, and then the grey was sprayed,
> then masking done for the noses, etc. then the
> real scarlet applied. Wouldn't these units have
> been painted at EMD to SP specs? In this case, SP
> frugality may have not been as much of an issue.

True, but SP frugality or EMD, it is a lot of paint to waste. I'll try asking "THE PROFESSOR".
When I get an answer I'll Post.
Ed

UPED Wrote:
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>
> True, but SP frugality or EMD, it is a lot of
> paint to waste. I'll try asking "THE PROFESSOR".
> When I get an answer I'll Post.
> Ed


Not if there was a need for 2 coats of different primer. I do agree that it seems counterintuitive to paint the whole thing scarlet though. Isn't there someone from EMD out there who really knows the story?