Passenger Trains > Rialto: "They used the brakes but they didn't stop"

Just the latest hubbub from the LA Times...

*Metrolink 306 Ran Red Signal

*Metrolink 306 crew noticed all proper signals and apparently applied the brakes but did not stop in time, it's not clarified how far in advance they applied the brakes though, or just what they mean by "They used the brakes but they didn't stop" but that's probably because that's not known yet. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of that quote in the media.

*Confirmed two people in the cab

*Metrolink looking into terminating the Veolia Contract if Operator Error is Blamed

*Trains will receive a complete mechanical inspection before Monday

*Could be months before we hear anything regarding a cause (As Usual)

Enjoy: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-la-train-crash22-2008nov22,0,1862621.story

Someone suggested a third person in the cab, to keep eye on the other two ;-)

The more people in the cab, the more chances that conversations and other distractions occur.

I was lookin' back to see if you were lookin' back at me to see if i was lookin' back at you .. ad nauseam.

More eyes in the cab won't make any difference if none of them are paying attention.

Sometimes while I'm driving my wife will tense up and gasp, causing me to put on the brake. I think she's seen something I've missed, but it never turns out that I've missed anything.

In other words I'd rather take my chances with what I've seen than have a distracting second pair of eyes seeing what's not there.

Fritz in Huntsville, AL

Better hope your wife doesn't read TrainOrders!

navy5717th Wrote:
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> I was lookin' back to see if you were lookin' back
> at me to see if i was lookin' back at you .. ad
> nauseam.
>
> More eyes in the cab won't make any difference if
> none of them are paying attention.
>
> Sometimes while I'm driving my wife will tense up
> and gasp, causing me to put on the brake. I think
> she's seen something I've missed, but it never
> turns out that I've missed anything.
>
> In other words I'd rather take my chances with
> what I've seen than have a distracting second pair
> of eyes seeing what's not there.
>
> Fritz in Huntsville, AL

Jaanfo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just the latest hubbub from the LA Times...
>
> *Metrolink 306 Ran Red Signal
>
> *Metrolink 306 crew noticed all proper signals and
> apparently applied the brakes but did not stop in
> time, it's not clarified how far in advance they
> applied the brakes though, or just what they mean
> by "They used the brakes but they didn't stop" but
> that's probably because that's not known yet. I'm
> sure we haven't seen the last of that quote in the
> media.
>
> *Confirmed two people in the cab
>
> *Metrolink looking into terminating the Veolia
> Contract if Operator Error is Blamed
>
> *Trains will receive a complete mechanical
> inspection before Monday
>
> *Could be months before we hear anything regarding
> a cause (As Usual)
>
> Enjoy:
> http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/californi
> a/la-me-la-train-crash22-2008nov22,0,1862621.story


The quote isn't exactly true. The train stopped. It just didn't stop in time. Maybe the engineer was "grandstanding" up to the red signal (not a good idea) and the train didn't respond like he/she thought it would.

StarlightHog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe the engineer was "grandstanding" up to the red
> signal (not a good idea) and the train didn't respond
> like he/she thought it would.


I would agree that's a possibility although "grandstanding" certainly isn't what it used to be. When I think of grandstanding, I think of last-minute braking for a stopping point from unlimited-by-signals track speed. In the earlier part of my railroad career I participated in grandstanding when it fit the timeframe situation (and sometimes when not) as did many of my fellow engineers and I don't recall any collision in my territory that resulted from the practice. The collisions that I recall were the result of failure to stop when operating at restricted speed, not when operating at unlimited-by-signals track speed. Remember, speed restrictions on a yellow signal are a Johnny-come-lately practice in the history of signaled railroading.

Why doesn't everyone wait unil the cause is determined before speculating causes as if anyone of us knows it.

I think we have the cause, everthing else is just the excuse.

StarlightHog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The quote isn't exactly true. The train stopped.
> It just didn't stop in time. Maybe the engineer
> was "grandstanding" up to the red signal (not a
> good idea) and the train didn't respond like
> he/she thought it would.


I knew the quote was kinda off, which is why I made a big deal of it. I noticed more articles posted today by the AP have a slightly more eloquent "...in time" at the end of the same quote.

Just goes to show how easily words can be misused by the media, eh?

navy5717th Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> More eyes in the cab won't make any difference if
> none of them are paying attention.

Reminds me of the L-1011 crash in the Everglades back in the 70s. There was a full compliment of captain, copilot, and FAA check pilot in the cockpit. But on approach to Miami International at night they were all so interested in discussing some hot new flight control gadget that none of them noticed that they were slowly, steadily losing altitude. Flew the plane right into the ground...

My understanding is they where all trying to find out why one of the gear lights wasn't coming on. Turned out to be a bad bulb, and they determined the gear was down and locked.

You are "meeting" a freight train at a long siding on straight track. You already pass 96 cars and can't stop a 4 car train? You could stop that train with the "jam" (independent engine brakes). NO need to hurry as you're not going anywhere until the freight train gets "in the clear" and the dispatcher lines the switch and codes the route east.

Based on the information here, it would appear that one of two possible scenarios resulted in a failure to stop before reaching the red signal:

Either

(1) Misjudgment of the engineer regarding speed, distance and braking rate.

or

(2) A failure of the braking system, such as (but not limited to) a closed angle cock.

In this regard, I recall a story from an Amtrak engineer from over 25 years ago, when he slid right by a station stop, only to discover that an angle cock behind the second car had vibrated shut. Almost immediately, a bulletin was issued requiring that until further notice all Amfleet angle cocks were to be WIRED in the open position before a train left its initial terminal. (The angle cocks originally used on Amfleet cars rotated about a horizontal axis and the handles were horizontal when the valve was open and pointed down when closed.)

D F W

At least in California you can't blame the autumn leaves for slickin' up the tracks!

There should be an event recorder being downloaded here somewhere.

What does Metrolink expect to accomplish by terminating the Veolia contract?

Wildebeest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In this regard, I recall a story from an Amtrak
> engineer from over 25 years ago, when he slid
> right by a station stop, only to discover that an
> angle cock behind the second car had vibrated
> shut.

I think this happened some 55 years ago with disasterous results to Union Station in Washington.

And because of that angle cocks have been improved and positioned better.

Wildebeest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Based on the information here, it would appear
> that one of two possible scenarios resulted in a
> failure to stop before reaching the red signal:
>
> Either
>
> (1) Misjudgment of the engineer regarding speed,
> distance and braking rate.
>
> or
>
> (2) A failure of the braking system, such as (but
> not limited to) a closed angle cock.
>
> In this regard, I recall a story from an Amtrak
> engineer from over 25 years ago, when he slid
> right by a station stop, only to discover that an
> angle cock behind the second car had vibrated
> shut. Almost immediately, a bulletin was issued
> requiring that until further notice all Amfleet
> angle cocks were to be WIRED in the open position
> before a train left its initial terminal. (The
> angle cocks originally used on Amfleet cars
> rotated about a horizontal axis and the handles
> were horizontal when the valve was open and
> pointed down when closed.)
>
> D F W


If this were the case, a download from the locomotive when compared to a download of the cab car would show a big difference in BP Pressure.

David.Curlee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does Metrolink expect to accomplish by
> terminating the Veolia contract?


Well. I am also hearing. Metro (LACMTA-Los Angeles) and LADOT is terminating their contracts as well.