Passenger Trains > DiB Sign?

OOS old ticket vending machines blocking DiB sign. But what's the point of the DiB rule (and sign reminding of the rule) when the signal is right there anyway?

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Do trains ever stop past the signal?

Reminder before entering the next block.

Every such sign I have seen is posted right on the signal pole ("D") or at the end of the station, in the latter case just says "DIB". Is that a genuine DIB sign ?

Stupid of the revenue department to stick a TVM there without notifying anybody,. Where is that ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/17 18:20 by joemvcnj.

Looks like Matteson - is it?

I don't see any wires into the ticket machines, maybe they were shoved over and chained to the biggest thing around?

It doesn't matter. It is all nonsense anyway.

Wasn't there a 1960's song that said:
"Signs, signs, everywhere signs, fing up the scenery......."

I bet there are very few in the industry that remember what started this nonsense.
It was the CSX signal department pulling out and replacing signals with no regard to
the type of traffic using the signals. Of course the NTSB, FRA came down on the operating
crews. The result are these stupid signs nationwide. Of course the effect of the signs decrease
as they become just another part of the scenery.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAR9702.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/17 06:40 by Englewood.

Didn't the Silver Spring MD crash prompt a new round of DIB signs and advance signals?

Posted from Android

OK, I'll bite the hook!
What does DIB mean?
We don't have no signs like that out here in the frontier!!
Thanks in advance,

James R.(Jim) Baker
Whittier, CA

Delay In Block

After you've passed the last signal, but made a station stop, etc

Posted from Android

I agree that there are far too many signs on railroads. Unfortunately when crews fail to control their trains appropriately "something" must be done. Sometimes "something" is posting signs reminding the crews of what they should already know. And when a railroads are instructed to do "something" they often do it even in places where it makes no sense.

It this case it appears "something" was "place a DIB sign at the end of the platform in locations where the next signal is an absolute signal". No caveat for "and the next signal is not visible from the stopping point of the train".

Was covering up the sign was as stupid as placing the sign? They might as well mounted the DIB sign to the signal itself (and it might have been a better placement since, in my opinion, the reminder should be seen after the train stops not before the stop).


"If a push-pull train that has passed a distant signal makes a station stop or reduces speed to less than 10 MPH, it must:
1. Approach the home signal prepared to stop,
AND
2. Not exceed 40 MPH, unless governed by a slower speed.
The train may resume the speed authorized by the distant signal when the home signal is seen to display a proceed indication."

Since the home signal is visible DIB seems irrelevant. However if the train stops beyond the home signal and the next signal is another absolute signal DIB would apply to the next block.

In my opinion the sign should be where it would make a difference. It should be visible from where the train stops and should not be posted when the next signal is clearly visible.


(The problem the rule was designed to solve was where a train passed a distant signal informing them that the next signal was some form of proceed but during their stop the next signal changed and was no longer a proceed signal. If such a train would resume based on the previous signal instead of a "prepared to stop at next signal" it would be easier to overrun the stop signal. In this case, if the next signal changed it would be visible from any train that stopped at the platform - head end before the signal. Making DIB rules irrelevant.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/17 10:43 by justalurker66.

No, trains would not stop beyond the signal. This is indeed Matteson looking south on Metra's ex-IC electric line. The track to the right becomes the lead into the storage tracks so southbound through trains will cross over. All northbound through trains would be coming up the 2nd track. Some cross over to track 1.

They took these cash machines OOS some months back leaving just a credit / debit machine. Given the labor it would take to get machines that were at platform level down, what I suspect will happen is that they will come alongside with a flat and Burro crane and remove them that way. They restock salt bags that way.

As dumb as the sign rule may be, is this technically a violation of 49 CFR something something? I'm thinking no because if rule isn't written well enough to obviate putting signs a few feet in front of a signal, it's probably not written well enough to mandate visibility. Also, I could only find where the RRs were ordered to incorporate the rule and test compliance, not a law.

Posted from iPhone

It appears DIB was created by Emergency Order 20 back in 1996:
https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L02273#p1_z5_gD_lSO_y1996

These rules were written to protect passengers traveling in a lead car of trains (the cab car in push-pull service). This would also apply to trains such as MED where the lead car was itself a powered car.

Several rules were required to be put in place by railroads who did not already have such a rule -
1) Signal indications for approach or less favorable than approach must be called out as they are seen and acknowledged by another crew member.
2) The DIB rule:
"... if a passenger train enters a block on a signal indication and the train stops for any reason, including a station stop, or its speed is reduced below 10 m.p.h., the train shall proceed under speed limitations set forth in existing applicable operating rules, and in addition, must be prepared to stop before passing the next signal; the train must maintain the prescribed speed until the next wayside signal is clearly visible and that signal displays a proceed indication, and the track to that signal is clear. (For purposes of this order, a "block" is a length of track of defined limits the use of which is governed by wayside signal indications.) This will prevent situations where a signal displays an aspect less favorable than "clear" prior to a station stop but the engineer, after stopping and resuming movement, forgets that he or she should be operating at a reduced speed." "Under this rule, if the next signal is clear, timetable speed may be resumed. However, if the next signal requires a stop, the engineer will have the train under control and be prepared to stop short ofthe signal. This rule will presumably result in a certain amount of slowing of operations between station stops and the next forward signal, but FRA believes such relatively minimal delay is warranted to ensure safety."


The sign itself does not appear to be mandated (perhaps in a later order?).

I dont think the DIB sign was ever mandated by the feds. I think some RR's decided to put it up at all stations that had no automatics between the station platform and the next home signal. Have never seen a DIB sign out here on the SP/UP coast line. Of course, the old signals/blocks were about 3/4 mile apart, so there was a signal not very far from every station platform. Also did not have all signals co=located for both directions, so u'd have a signal for each direction at each end of a platform, rather than the signals co-located. Today...new blocks are 1.5 miles apart, and opposite direction signals are on the same mast....

Even the PATH rapid transit-like system has DIB signs. Many years ago, they lengthened running times between Newark and Journal Square from 10 to 11 minutes due to the speed restriction DIB has caused.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even the PATH rapid transit-like system has DIB
> signs. Many years ago, they lengthened running
> times between Newark and Journal Square from 10 to
> 11 minutes due to the speed restriction DIB has
> caused.


Yes.

PATH also has "trippers" between the rails to enforce the train spacing.

They basically have the same exact trip stop and timer activated signals that NYCT has.
They got into PTC because they are still classified by the FRA as a "railroad".

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Didn't the Silver Spring MD crash prompt a new round of DIB signs and advance signals?

You are absolutely correct. :-)
After a scheduled station stop in the block, a push-pull eastbound MARC commuter (being pushed) accelerated into a collision with westbound Amtrak Capitol Limited. It could have been worse except the Amtrak engineer recognized the situation and accelerated sufficiently to enter the crossover track from left to right. This caused the MARC (on the left track, viewed from eastbound) when it failed to stop and entered the crossover (due to excessive speed) to sideswipe the second Amtrak engine, rather than hit it head on. Fatalities from ensuing fire were all on MARC, as I recall.

The DIB emergency rule was issued shortly thereafter, and can be found on the above post by justalurker66. Although the rule does not require signage, the DIB signs were used by some roads as a visual reminder that the restrictions/conditions of the rule apply.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/17 11:11 by hazegray.