Passenger Trains > The thrill of it all

Discussions on this board about whether or not Amtrak’s contemporary dining is good or bad have, as usual, veered into many other areas, from politics to history. Various authors have expressed a variety of opinions about what should be done for the future of passenger trains here in the United States. Some of those opinions were not only narrowly focused, but, really, pretty silly.

First, the old axiom about those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it is all too true.

Second, on a positive note, often, what’s old is suddenly new.

Those who are professionals in the passenger railroad industry, whether Americans, Canadians, Europeans, or Asians, or any other geographic quantifier of a group, know the travel industry is constantly evolving.

At the most recent Paris Air Show, an airline seat manufacturing company introduced what is essentially “stand up” seating, akin to having a specified space to lean against when in flight, replacing a traditional seat. One can only imagine how the majority of already-mistreated airline passengers would greet this space/weight/money-saving “innovation.”

A happier note for airlines is the beginning of a move to upgrade food service on airlines. While we’re not quite back to the onboard full hunt breakfast offered by Western Airlines, the trend is towards upgrading food service for both the passengers in the front of the plane as well as those in cattle class. The airlines are rediscovering that when passengers have pleasing amenities, they are happier when in flight, even if they are shoulder-to-shoulder with complete strangers.

Resorts and many of the upper end hotels are also rediscovering good meal service, and the importance of offering “something for everyone,” whether it’s a high-end dinner service, a club-like luncheon service, or a breakfast buffet.

Cruise lines, perhaps the largest investors in creature comforts, are rushing to renovate and upgrade ships to offer better passenger amenities, such as a variety of specialty restaurants (at an additional charge) beyond the traditional grand dining rooms designed for hundreds of passengers at a time.

Importantly, the cruise lines have also discovered many ways to separate passengers from the dollars in their wallets, such as offering specialty food packages at an additional cost, adult beverage drink packages at an additional cost, and, a cruise line favorite, a day at sea between ports, even if it means steaming slowly in a huge circle outside of the sight of land. When passengers have a full day at sea, they are much more likely to run up bar tabs, spend more money in casinos, or go shopping for their next cruise in the always-helpful onboard cruise line reservations center, always ready to book passengers for the next holiday or special event or vacation cruise while they are enjoying the current cruise.

The cruise lines and resorts and hotels are remembering and doing everything much of passenger rail in America has forgotten how to do under the unfortunate and heavy hand of government control where faceless bureaucrats fret over silliness like whether or not its right to spend money on sleeping cars and diners and lounge cars when “ordinary” people are riding in coaches.

In Europe and Asia, passenger rail operators – whether profitable and successful private operators running trains over someone else’s infrastructure or government controlled operators – have suddenly rediscovered the many virtues of overnight trains with sleeping and dining cars.

Some of the operators have been swapping equipment between each other to beef up fleets, others have been completely re-equipping their fleets, such as the Caledonian Sleeper Train, and upgrading the levels of service both onboard and in stations.

Europeans and Asians have found ways to offer good, hot foot in their “restaurant” cars, while simultaneously operating these cars without excessive costs.

If the rest of the world can do it, why can’t it be done in the United States?

We only have to look north to VIA Rail Canada to understand the full passenger train experience, whether on the transcontinental Canadian, the overnight Ocean, or on any of VIA’s corridor trains, where good passenger service is an automatic amenity.

Then we come to the discussion of the millennials and passenger trains. There are those amongst us, in the name of service to millennials, who wrongly believe poor choices and poor offerings to the rest of the traveling public somehow justify serving this particular group of passengers.

One argument some refuse to understand, unless millennials are well-traveled outside of the United States, millennials only know the offering of Amtrak; none of them were around before May 1, 1971 when Amtrak began operations.

The justification of millennials won’t use a dining car or sleeping car is wrong, mostly because they have never been exposed to a true dining car or well-run sleeping car with a variety of accommodations for comfort and convenience.

Some huff and say the longing for a good dining car is dated; nobody wants crisp white linens and real plates and cups and silverware. How many thriving restauranteurs would quickly and gladly dispute that? While there is certainly a market for fast casual “dining,” or the busy middle-category of restaurants (think barbeque or local family restaurants) there is a high demand for slower, more comfortable restaurants where it isn’t appropriate for alleged gentlemen to continue to wear their baseball caps throughout their dining experience.

The best things about a passenger train include the ability to lengthen or shorten a train on demand, to offer the freedom of movement at any time, adequate sized restrooms, large seats in comparison to airlines, the privacy of sleeping cars, and the ability to enjoy a meal while traveling. All of the rest of the reasons for passenger trains you already know.

A passenger train without food service is a bus on steel wheels.

Some “planners” who have only been exposed to the rigors of subways or light rail, or even heavy rail commuter service, don’t full understand all of the potential of regional or long distance passenger trains.

Thinking that anything to preserve passenger trains is critical, even choking off the best features of a train to placate poor management to achieve false economic results is, of course, wrong.

There is nothing incorrect about considering a train to be a moving hotels, going merrily from city to city, and stopping at some small towns along the way.

Instead of meritless arguments about the costs of staffing levels or the per-car-day costs of operating specific equipment, the correct focus is on how to entice passengers to spend money onboard a train, and, how to convince passengers in the first place to ride a train.

There are several concepts available, right now:

– Go to a 24 hour dining car. A dining car is the most expensive piece of passenger equipment to purchase (the cost of the new Tier IV locomotives has finally outstripped the cost of dining cars as the most expensive overall); it should be used constantly.

– Make the dining car offerings affordable for coach passengers, too. When dining car cost were raised artificially to pull more revenue into food service from the income from sleeping car passengers, coach passengers were effectively priced out of the dining car. People wonder why the dining car does not have more coach patronage; the answer is they are not invited at the price offered for a meal. There is no reason some menu choices can’t be available at more reasonable prices.

– With modern technology, it’s possible to purchase any combination of services on a train; why are food packages not offered to coach passengers? Just as Amtrak remains America’s greatest kept secret, an even bigger secret is onboard food and drink services. Sell meals in advance to coach passengers when purchasing tickets.

– If the cruise lines have figured out how to sell drink packages to passengers, why can’t the same thing be done on trains? We have heard for years about employee theft from lounge cars, particularly in the days when cigar boxes were still used in place of cash registers. Pre-selling drink packages eliminates a lot of cash handling. Wasn’t that the reason a few years ago Amtrak would not accept cash in the Lake Shore Limited dining cars? Also, the airlines figured out years ago by not allowing service attendants to accept cash for onboard purchases, somehow, miraculously inventory better matched reported sales.

– Understand what is happening in all of the travel industry instead of living in a passenger rail bubble. Many ideas and concepts abound that are pleasing to passengers, causing them to choose their preferred way to travel, versus just making a decision of departures and arrivals.

The folks at Brightline/Virgin Trains USA have, for the United States, done some revolutionary things in stations, and onboard amenities. They understand passenger service and amenities. Their ridership is growing; wisely they made the decision to roll out their initial service between MiamiCentral station and West Palm Beach to experience a full learning curve before the full service begins to Orlando and then soon to Tampa. This is a private company, spending their own money, free from the constraints of bureaucrats making demands on them for political reasons. They are blazing a trail that hopefully will reignite passenger rail beyond the growth of today.

Choose which millennials will like better: A brown box meal they have to grope their way through, or the extra attention lavished by Virgin Trains USA serving real food to real people?

When planning for the traveling public, the key is to plan for the comfort, convenience and choice of the greatest group(s) of passengers, not unproven forecasts based on a social experiment or unproven notion of what any particular group may, or may not, prefer.

– End

 

Good thinking.  

Excellent analysis. Currently the excessive cost of single level dining cars is a moot point. They have already been purchased, mostly delivered, mostly in storage, and are only used on two trains for their intended purpose and that's slated to end soon.

That is more thought than went into the "Follow the Millennials" plan. And it is way more than NARP/RPA's mere "disappointment" at the latest report of what's happening on October 1.

Posted from Android

Many good points.

I will add that cruise ships and airlines are intensive users of their assets. A ship arrives, discharges passengers, provisions itslef, and takes on new passengers in 6-8 hours for another 7-14-28 day cruise. Airlines expect their long haul planes to be in the air 75%-80% of the time.  And assure there is an abundance of highly skilled mechanics and crafts people to work on them in the 5 hous between trips.

Amtrak's choice to utilize day long layovers is a terrible use of what should be earning assets.  Even turning layover consists for short hauls to Boston or DC from NY would put tens of thousands of dollars in gross revenue into the pot.  But that would require more people at Sunnyside, etc.

There are lots of issues. 
1. Brightline is not a good example if u want a national system.  Its exactly what Richard (Anderson) is advocating.
2. Liesure (traveling for the experience) travel, and business (traveling to a destination) are totally different.  Cruise ships, and traveling on Delta are totally different models.   If Amtk is going to do both, they need, IMHO, to have separate departments, run by ppl who know their field.  Richard is a business travl guy.  Could care less about liesure (cruise ship) style travel.  His priorities, in case you didnt know.. 1) safety  2) reliable transportation 3) amenities.
He has said from the begining, that he will have some "homage" to traditional train travel, which he said would be the CS and CZ.  He's added the EB now.
He is setting up the East of Mississippi service in line with a transportation mode of operation.  i.e. Ride the overnight trains because its a better alternative than driving or air travel.  Taking the train "because its a fun train ride", are not the passengers he is looking for on these trains.  9 out of 9 ppl on this siite (including me) use train travel cause we like it.    He wants to get the people who choose it because its a good alternative to cars ot airplanes.  No getting to/from the airport, the whole airport mess, routine weather delays (Amtk doesnt cancel for thunderstorms), and being crammed into a little chair for hours on end.   I used to fly DTW-EWR at 9pm alot.  Routinely, 1 hour delay for takeoff, 45 min delay in the air waiting to land, and then 20 minutes on the ramp waiting for a gate.  The record takeoff delay was 4 hours!
3. Considering that Amtk runs at the whim of transportation knowledgeless politicians, I think its doing as well as could be expected.  VIA might be nicer, but they hardly run any trains.  They cut the system back to next to nothing, other than Windsor-Toronto-Montreal-Quebec City

I like that Richard wants to make Amtk via transportation, but i think his initial cutbacks went too far.  I dont mind airline style meals, as long as I dont have to pay an extroadinate amount for them and there are hot alternatives...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/19 12:21 by pdt.

Don't compare Amtrak to the cruise ship lines.  A  majority of those on board employees make substandard wages and sleep in cramped conditions.
Many have no union representation and are from countries that don't have much to say in protecting their interests.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/19 05:21 by mp51w.

> routine weather delays (Amtk doesnt cancel for thunderstorms)

Well to be fair, in some parts of the country Amtrak does have summer daytime speed restrictions under threat of sun kinks, and Amtrak has crawled through areas suffering flash flood warnings. It ain't like the train blows through at 79 mph regardless of anything. All modes of transportation are impacted by weather one way or another, including Megabus and Greyhound. 
 

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't compare Amtrak to the cruise ship lines. 
> A  majority of those on board employees make
> substandard wages and sleep in cramped
> conditions.
> Many have no union representation and are from
> countries that don't have any interest in
> protecting their interests.

This is very true.  Cruise ship pay is terrible.  And look how many ppl they have to have on one ship to make it close to profitable.  Imagine how much it would cost to take a cruise on a ship with only 100-200  passengers.  (avg cruise ship holds 3000 pax)

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mp51w Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Don't compare Amtrak to the cruise ship
> lines. 
> > A  majority of those on board employees make
> > substandard wages and sleep in cramped
> > conditions.
> > Many have no union representation and are from
> > countries that don't have any interest in
> > protecting their interests.
>
> This is very true.  Cruise ship pay is
> terrible.  And look how many ppl they have to
> have on one ship to make it close to profitable. 
> Imagine how much it would cost to take a cruise on
> a ship with only 100-200  passengers.  (avg
> cruise ship holds 3000 pax)

Cruise line pay is awful, no question about it.  But there are fifty employees per 100 passengers on many lines.  That's a fine ratio, if service is of interest.

Carnival Cruise made about $500 million in profits in each of the past two reported years.  Not bad.  They could pay their people more, if they wanted.  But they have no interest in doing so, and no pressure from the highly politically connected regulators.  The US leaves labor issues to the countries of registry, etc, although the US does oversee sanitation on ships calling at US ports

Thanks John Page.   You hit some good points.

The Captain and Chief Engineer on many of the cruise ships earn less that a sailor on a ship flying the American Flag.  The Crew has very few benefits.

Airlines up grading food in all classes - Amtrak down grading.  Airlines can turn a plane in an hour - Amtrak take many hours, and doesn't always do a thorough job.

No mention of the transportation elephant in the room -- the three-row SUV (replacing the 20th Century's family station wagon) and the 70+ mph Interstate Highway System (replacing "Blue Highways").

I had lunch in the diner of an ICE train three years ago. The German food was beef steak with gravy, potatoes, a vegetable, roll, and ice cream. The total was around US$17 and it was very good. From the table I got a peek into the galley while they were preparing it. It all looked to be boil-in-bag with a microwave step inolved, and it took less than 5 minutes to serve. The diner was open continuously and service was first-come-first-served on civilized dishes and silverware. In my opinion, the solution is something in between a traditional diner and contemporary dining.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/19 15:54 by SAAP.

The original post wins the "best post in years" award

Posted from Android

An excellent message, with many thoughtful ideas. 

It's important to believe in your product and to care about the experiences of your passngers.

Well-stated points.

I particularly liked "A passenger train without food service is a bus on steel wheels". This is so true.

In a constellation of travel options, successful operators distinguish themselves, partially through differentiating their products. If I'm going to endure the disutility of higher travel times vs. flying, the lack of flexibility vs. driving and many other annoyances of traveling with Amtrak, it better be worth it. To me, if I can't at least have dinner in the diner and the prospect of meeting fellow travelers, which is integral to any travel experience, why should I select Amtrak? I've traveled extensively through Europe and Canada by train and, in general, have had good experiences. Having a good, hot meal in the diner (non-"contemporary" and NO French-sized portions), punctuates the experience and is something I look forward to.

If it's eliminated or diluted, why should I come back and even select Amtrak at all? There's nothing they can offer, except basic transportation, which I can easily get, anyway, through other options less expensively, more flexibly and more frequently than Amtrak.

MX3MZ1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I particularly liked "A passenger train without
> food service is a bus on steel wheels". This is so
> true.




Except it's false. One can travel between Ventura and San Diego, CA, about 200 miles, on passenger trains that serve no food.

Many other examples around the world.

Also, railways in France serve "French-sized portions".

Do the Belgian railroads serve Belgian waffles?